Trump vs Venezuela === Daryl Cagle: Hi, I am Daryl Cagle, and this is the Caglecast where we're all about political cartoons. And today we're talking to Arcadio Esquivel and Taylor Jones. Two great cartoonists who have drawn a lot of cartoons about Venezuela and Nicholas Maduro. And, it looks like Trump is just about ready to invade Venezuela. so we have all kinds of great cartoons about Evil Maduro and Trump. Just about to crush Venezuela. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me. Taylor Jones: Thank you, Daryl. Arcadio: Thanks to you. Daryl Cagle: Taylor here is a wonderful Maduro, Humpty Dumpty. That looks great. He's getting cracked. You've really got Maduro down. Taylor Jones: He's, he is, I've been caricaturing him for a long time. He's a lot of fun to do, and he looks both sinister and like a buffoon at the same time. Daryl Cagle: He does, I guess he is fun here he is, leading his minions, Chavism or death. Taylor Jones: It does kind of represent the criminal side of the Maduro regime. Why say on a tricycle? Because he's an idiot. Daryl Cagle: Alright. Here you have, here. No evil Seeo [00:01:00] Evil Speak. No evil Maduro. With the bullets flying and the Molotov cocktail. Right. You know, he puts up with a lot and then his way through everybody, Taylor Jones: Pretty much. And he's, he, well, he is also, and I think Arca might agree, he's, he's sort of oblivious to all around him in terms going on, politics and, , and the hatred for him. He just, he just remains sort doesn't pay any attention to it. Daryl Cagle: You might say that about Trump. That's why they get along, he says, but I am a man of peace. Taylor Jones: Well, that's the point. His regime has been unable to deliver, basic services, that Venezuelans need. Daryl Cagle: Okay. And we'll look at a few of yours. Arcadio Arcadio is an award-winning political cartoonist in Costa Rica. He teaches caricature at the University of Costa Rica and produces the educational TV show El Mundo Day, Arcadio on Channel 13 there. And he teaches art and drawing on tv. his cartoons appear in lots of newspapers through Cagle Cartoons. Nice to have you here, Arcadio. Arcadio: Thanks. Thanks Daryl. Daryl Cagle: Let me also introduce, Arcadio's translator Karen, who you may hear on here. This is a very [00:02:00] nice one. Taylor Jones: Oh, that's nicely done, Translator: well, the situation in between Venezuelan the United States, it's so critical that it's reaching to a point that it's gonna explode everything. Taylor Jones: I know it might sound silly, but I love the way you've got the sand here. You've really made an excellent point here I think this sums up Maduro's option as well as the last cartoon Arcadio: Yes, you are right. The Maduro is a very easy person to characterize, to make a caricature from him. Daryl Cagle: Well, this is a very nice one. Who knows where, Venezuela is going or gone. Taylor Jones: Let's say Maduro is gone, a month from now. This doesn't solve Venezuela's problems. Daryl Cagle: He's driven half the people out of the country. Taylor Jones: Right. But it's, tell me what you think about that in terms of what Venezuela will have to do to make itself right. Daryl Cagle: Good luck, Karen. Translator: No, it's okay. First of all, let me just say what Arcadio means with the caricature and then I'll translate the question that you asked him. This car caricature. It represents a void in Venezuela, which is very disturbing because this was made 10, 10 years ago. So that this hasn't changed a lot since. This is very [00:03:00] concerning and all his staff needs to go like all of them, and democracy needs to be reinstated. Daryl Cagle: Here is your, nice portrait of the new Nobel Prize winner. Tell us about this one. Arcadio: Ah, this is the two portraits of a man, a man who is very bad man, and a woman who is very incredible woman in Venezuela. Daryl Cagle: The news we get here about Maria Corina. Machado is mostly that she says it's really Trump who won this Nobel Prize Prize? I dedicate it to him. Yeah. What whatcha gonna say? Taylor Jones: She might be thinking of a future where she or and or her party are in charge, and they're gonna be relying heavily on Trump. For support. Daryl Cagle: She's wise to know which butts to kiss. That's Taylor Jones: right. Ao, I like, I love your, Maduro here. Great mustache, great, great bags under the eyes. Arcadio: Thank you, Taylor. he can, he can't sleep, because he's very in trouble now and Translator: The fact that Maria won the Nobel Prize is a huge, huge punch to the gut, for Madura because it pressures him a lot. Daryl Cagle: I don't think of pressure as having much effect on him. Translator: Yeah, he thinks pressure should be higher. That's why, [00:04:00] everything that the United States is doing is great because the pressure is getting higher for him. Taylor Jones: I think Daryl made a good point because to just watch Maduro to look at him, he looks kind of an immovable object that you can push and push and he just doesn't go anywhere. And that seems to be, his way of survival, all these years. Translator: At least it gives us a lot of material for us cartoonist and especially Latin American cartoonist because, he's an idiot, so it's very, want to make fun of him. Daryl Cagle: I thought this was a nice one. Arcadio: Ah, yes. It's very nice. Daryl Cagle: We're starting to do, animated cartoons and I think this one would work very well as an animated cartoon. Yes, you're right, Dar It's difficult. Have a animation for me, but I will try. Taylor Jones: It's a controversial subject, Darryl, as you know. Oh, Daryl Cagle: about animation. Yeah. The cartoonists love it or hate it. They want us to support the, we're animators that are losing their jobs. Taylor Jones: You've tried a, you've tried a few animations of mine. The thing is that, one thing, I think even in a cartoon like acas here, which has no text, it's meant to be read. And that's where I think in some ways the animations don't, [00:05:00] aren't making it yet. Maybe they will, but I'm not seeing that yet. Daryl Cagle: Taylor, I have an animation of yours that I can show here. Taylor Jones: Alright, go ahead. Sure. Video: Release files. Release files. Daryl Cagle: I didn't mean to show that twice. Very good. I Taylor Jones: thought that was good. Now again, Darryl, I think there are some cartoonists who have not allowed you to do it, at least not yet. Is that correct? There's some who just, I Daryl Cagle: haven't asked anybody that said no, but really I didn't ask, I didn't ask anybody that I thought would say no. Oh, okay. Here, here's your, Pam Bondi, Video: not, not to see here. Daryl Cagle: That was your Epstein files cartoon. I thought that was hilarious, Arcadio: Taylor. How you do that? Taylor Jones: I didn't dare We did it. We're using Grok, the AI program, Grok. Daryl Cagle: It's pretty easy. Yeah, this one would be a great one for that. You should think about it. Arcadio, we would do that with you. All right here. A mission possible. Translator: Yeah. He really enjoyed making that caricature. Actually. He was about [00:06:00] to see Mission Impossible with his son at the cinemas. And, he thought it would be a good idea to make this caricature where MA's tongue is like almost ending, running out of time in a very Mission Impossible way. Daryl Cagle: He is ready to blow. This is a very nice one too. This would also make a good animated cartoon. Arcadio: Ah, yes, you are right. Yeah, true. Taylor, how many cartoons about Madura do you do this years? Taylor Jones: Oh, this year, believe it or not, I haven't done one, but over the past number, in the past I've, I've done at least about 15 or 20. Daryl Cagle: It's very frustrating here in America for, all the cartoons about anything that happens outside of our borders. They just don't get into newspapers. We've got all these wonderful, international editorial cartoonists who don't get reprinted just because, they're outside of the borders. It's very frustrating. Taylor Jones: I post cartoons of mine on my Facebook page. Whenever I post an international one, interest just drops off. I'll get seven likes. You just, nobody cares. it's really unfortunate, but, it's the way it is. Daryl Cagle: It's very frustrating. Arcadio, you were saying something. Arcadio: [00:07:00] Yes. Translator: Sure. Very quick. First of all, to answer your question about how many cartoons has Arcadio done? It has been a lot of, 50 or 20 caricatures about, Maduro what do you think would be the reason for the cartooning the US to be not receiving a lot of views or likes Daryl Cagle: I don't think cartoons cross borders. We notice the same thing in newspapers outside of the USA, that they don't wanna reprint American cartoonists. It's very, frustrating. So everybody's throwing rocks at Maduro and, he is not gonna last long. Translator: It just represents how much everyone hates him now. Taylor Jones: Right. Daryl Cagle: I'm gonna go through some cartoons by other cartoonists. This is by Kap from Spain, from Barcelona, and I thought this was a very nice one. Arcadio: Yes, I know, I know him. I met him Spain, 90 years ago. 90 years ago. Very good. This might Daryl Cagle: is by Osmani Simance from Brazil and, earlier from Cuba. And I think he's just great. Arcadio: Yes. He's very, [00:08:00] very good cartoon. This case. . Taylor Jones: Oh, and by the way, Darryl, he's a, he's made, he's made Trump a new world monkey because they have prehensile tales. Oh, Daryl Cagle: old Taylor Jones: world monkeys do not. Daryl Cagle: Very good. I love Simanca. This is Rama Suprani and she is an exile from Venezuela. She was, threatened by government thugs and fired from her newspaper job, and she, is now, drawing cartoons, criticizing Venezuela from Florida, living in exile given asylum here. And that is, wonderful to see her here. I appreciate that. Taylor Jones: It's also a Humpty Dumpty. Daryl Cagle: It's another Humpty Dumpty Taylor, Translator: that this is a very dark, image because it represents a lot of what Maduro is doing to the country. Daryl Cagle: He's got a whip. Translator: Yep. Daryl Cagle: This one is by, Rainer Hachfeld from Germany who died recently. And, we miss him. He always made me laugh. He was our only communist cartoonist. Translator: Well, it's very interesting because he was an European artist and he, but he had a very Latin American vision, so it's really interesting how he managed this subjects. Daryl Cagle: Rainer [00:09:00] was, great and we miss him. So Arcadio, here you are again. Maduro. The day before yesterday. Yesterday. Today, and tomorrow. Taylor Jones: That's, that's terrific. Arcadio. Translator: Well, he's falling apart. This, very powerful image. It's falling apart. Daryl Cagle: very Monty Python, Taylor Jones: This That's true, Daryl. Good point. Aio. This is, this is one of, this is one of those cartoons that I wish I had thought of. It's just great. Arcadio: Okay. Thank you. Daryl Cagle: And this one is by Schot in, the Netherlands. And, he's another one that I really admire for being so, simple and bold. Taylor Jones: Daryl, I, I also think this cartoon is a reflection of how. Trump is the focus of everything. He certainly tries to make himself the focus of everything. Translator: What Arcadio wants to know is, how do the most famous cartoonist in the US see the subject? Because sometimes he thinks that not a lot of, US based cartoonist do a lot of cartoons about him. Daryl Cagle: That is true, but that's, that's because of supply and demand. Taylor Jones: Hmm. One of the, if I could weigh in here, because I have drawn a lot of, Latin American leaders. [00:10:00] Not in recent years, but over my career. And I can tell you from, this may seem a strange compliment, but I'll tell you, Latin America, there's some great faces in politics. Just great faces. And, so much fun to draw, cutting, and, so it's, it's great. It's never, never ending for me. Translator: He did not want to use this image of, of Maduro, but at the end of the day, he's very, blood thirsty. At the end of the day, he did not have a lot of choice, so he decided to post and create this, this drawing of, of Maduro. Daryl Cagle: Of course, this is very difficult for, newspapers in America too, when, these bloody cartoons that the international cartoonists like to draw, they just don't want blood in America. They want, no bodily fluids. They don't like blood. They don't like pee. They don't like spit. They don't like throwing up. They just don't like any bodily fluids at all. They don't even like sweat. Taylor Jones: That's why that's half of my cartoons. Daryl Cagle: Darryl, that's half of your, that's really what cartoonists want to draw most, and, it's very frustrating. Taylor Jones: Arcadio, Question Arcadio: Uhhuh, Taylor Jones: it's you, could [00:11:00] you go to Venezuela at this point without. The government, having minders follow you concerned of who you might speak to, who you might see, would you be at risk Translator: going Taylor Jones: there? Arcadio: I don't believe so. I don't. Translator: There is no way that he could go. It's very risky. It's very dangerous. And he, thanks to Daryl Cagle, his curtains are widely known, no, this good exposure. Daryl Cagle: There's a lot of countries I don't think I could go to now. I certainly couldn't go to Iran or Russia. I kind of think I shouldn't go to China. That history of kidnapping businessmen, just to make points, they'd have a good reason to kidnap me. Yeah, you're both, I think that's true of a lot of editorial cartoonists. A lot of places in the world you cannot Arcadio: go. Right. Daryl Taylor. Translator: It's very concerning because the youth is not that well informed, sometimes they don't understand the caricatures and cartoons you are making. He can see it in his class, for instance. Yeah, it's very concerning that the youth is not that well informed nowadays. Daryl Cagle: Boy, that is true. I see that in my email. The main email I get is, dear Mr. Cagle, explain [00:12:00] the cartoon to me. My paper is due tomorrow. I think this one is nice. This one's, by Bart Van Leeuwen and also from the Netherlands. It makes me laugh, Arcadio: is it, is that, is that I love the, this cartoons. Translator: What do you think about this, image, because this is a very different style from what you have in your website. So how do you conceive this image? Daryl Cagle: We get complaints about Bart from other cartoonists that he's making his cartoons with AI we've had him since before you could do anything with cartoons in AI. His Stuff looked like this then. And now he is using ai, but he's doing the faces by hand in Photoshop, and he's doing mostly the backgrounds in AI. Taylor Jones: That makes sense. And first of obviously is kind of an animator at from the way he draws. But you can instance, the re- boot there. That's very sophisticated and that, that looks AI to me. Daryl Cagle: Those are two rules for us. No AI and no photography. But for art, since his stuff looks so much like it did and I can tell some of his cartoons did the faces, but the AI is all the [00:13:00] background. Translator: First, I'm gonna translate what you said, guys to our, and then I'm gonna translate the, the question to you. Yes. And the question for you guys that what's gonna happen in time when the has more force? What's gonna happen to the political cartoon? Because at the end of the gonna happen if a lot of image are generated this way? Taylor Jones: Can I answer that? Sure. Answer that first. I'm gonna answer it in Spanish, but you could, you could edit sojo. Thank God I'm old. Me too. I don't, this is, this is something I think about for all the younger cartoonists out there. I'm in my seventies, and, it, I, I don't know. Daryl, this is where you step in and explain Arcadio: Daryl. What, what do you think, what will happen in the future with the AI? . Daryl Cagle: I don't think people want to hear opinions from AI. The question for us is only, for cartoons that people write, is it okay for them to use AI to do the art? And, I'm not at a point where I want that yet, although we have kind of made a little bit of an [00:14:00] exception for BART here. also, I don't like the look of AI, but now we're playing with it for animated cartoons. And I think when it's working off of my style for my animated, my cartoons, I often like it. we'll just have to see how it goes and, I understand that some artists are very angry about it and insist that we have a boycott of AI to support the animators that are losing their jobs. And, I appreciate that. But, I'm gonna do what I want. Taylor Jones: Daryl, I got some criticism from posting that animated, that Grok animation of that cartoon of me and a boxing a friend. I didn't, I wanted to do that before I tried even putting a political one on there that you and I had done. Can I say something about this, car, the particular cartoon by Bart? it's a wonderful drawing there, but I think in a way it doesn't matter. I'm just being a critic here. I think part Pirates of the Caribbean, he could have come up with a better title because there's nothing. Pirate about it. And I Daryl Cagle: think usually when cartoonists put in titles like this, the cartoon's always better without the title. Taylor Jones: I've been guilty of that myself sometimes, but yeah, I see it here. Translator: [00:15:00] He, he's gonna present this to his students at the university, so he wants to. He wants you to tell them how important this is, that the cartoons stay human made and not ai, and they need to remain pure. So if you could give a little bit of more insight to that, it would be great. Daryl Cagle: Well, this one is not pure. This one. I think, all but the faces was done with AI and, we're syndicating it and it gets reprinted. I think we're past pure, but, we just have to decide case by case and see how it goes. I like the animation that AI does to my cartoons. And, so far the problem with that is that, we just need to find a market for it. And I think we may be finding a market now, and, so we may do that, and I understand why that makes many artists angry, but, Taylor Jones: what about. Excuse me, Darryl, what, what about this, and this is something I've noticed, about the little quick AI animations that show up, for instance, in my feed on whether it's Facebook or Instagram, where often with photography done very cleverly, for instance, a common, trio of, of people with these little short videos are Trump, Putin and, and Kim [00:16:00] Jong-Un. And the thing is that they're great. They're, they're, they're almost, they're spooky. They're 'cause they're so real. they're portrayed as, as little toddlers. And the thing is that after you watch a few of them, it's like they're boring. And you don't, you don't care anymore. And how do you, especially in a, in a world where the attention span keeps getting shorter, how are you thinking of, addressing that with animating our cartoons? Translator: Are paying the price of AI right now. Daryl Cagle: We're getting very little interest from the internet to pay for cartoons. Now. They haven't developed a culture of paying for content and, that is, very frustrating. But I'm hoping that, that will change soon. We've got some prospects we're working on, which is why we're interested in the animated cartoons now, which are only good for the internet. And, it makes sense that newspapers and print clients who are the only clients who we find pay for cartoons would not have been interested in them yet. Arcadio: this cartoon is amazing because it's a very hard to draw those incredible, missiles now, especially the scenario. Are you saying in English Translator: Yeah. Arcadio: Scenario. Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] A very, very difficult cartoon. Translator: This is what he sees in Venezuela. This, encapsulates everything that he sees in Venezuela, all the dictatorship, Daryl Cagle: My suggestion for you on this cartoon would be to not use a computer font to hand letter, everything. One problem I notice is that cartoonists who use fonts, especially in word balloons, their cartoons get reprinted less. And I think that's because, editors, perceive that to be, as something, anybody can do. And it just makes it less of a hand-drawn thing. It's more of the AI argument, you know, more of it that looks like it's done by computer. It becomes less valuable. Taylor Jones: Daryl, that you, you mentioned that because, when I started doing more regular political cartooning. I felt that my, I know, I know this, I kind of a silly thing, but I felt my lettering really wasn't good enough because I admire the great masters of car of, of cartoon lettering, but whether it, whether it's in strips or comic books or, or editorial cartoons. And, I remember you telling me exactly that, and I told you that I, I don't feel I'm quite there [00:18:00] yet, but I did. And 98% of my time, I, it has, hand lettering, but just once in a while where I feel that I just haven't lettered something well enough. And, I'll, I'll change it to a font, but I guess, you know, Taylor, Daryl Cagle: I've had conversations with cartoonists that think their letter lettering is terrible and they're, they just love using the car, the computer fonts, because it gets them away from their hand littering. That makes them cringe. Yeah. And that's just wrong. Editors don't see it that way. I really, they don't mind the lousy hand littering. It's just an expression of the real person's hand that's creating this. And as long as it's legible and the idea of the cartoon is good, any kind of hand lettering is better than computer lettering. Here's another one from Ray Suprani, the Venezuelan cartoonist in Florida. She makes it very clear how she feels. Arcadio: Oh, Daryl Cagle: he's a lead old bastard, and she was, she was very scared. She made an escape from there. I have a lot of admiration for her Russia, Venezuela, and China, and the Monroe Doctrine a in Brazil. I wish they would know [00:19:00] what the Monroe Doctrine is in the United States. And they just don't, which makes this cartoon unprintable here. But I think it's great. Translator: He loves how he draws, Putin and Trump because their faces are very comical and very funny. Daryl Cagle: Here is Arend Van Dam, also from the Netherlands. We have lots of cartoonists from the Netherlands and, Maduro riding his, his grim horse. Translator: It's a very strong image and it's, it symbolizes how they are destroying Venezuela. Daryl Cagle: Here's, here's another one from Rama and, the Venezuelan artists in Florida. Taylor Jones: Halloween. Daryl Cagle: Yes. A good Halloween topic. Translator: She makes the Maduro face excellent for scaring people. Daryl Cagle: And here's another one from you, Arcadio. He just can't get out of it. That, he is, he is gonna get blown up. Translator: Can people comprehend this, caricature because he was not sure if, people were able to understand why there were so many locks in the image. So he, he has that doubt. I ha Daryl Cagle: I hate to, to just say it this way. You've put a label on Maduro, which again, [00:20:00] I would prefer to have been hand lettered, but, for an American audience, you would have to put Venezuelan President Maduro, because they won't know from his name who he is. Taylor Jones: Mm-hmm. Aio, with, I'm curious, I would imagine that. Maduro doesn't have many supporters in Costa Rica or pretty much anywhere else in Latin America, but what concerns Costa Ricans more Maduro and what he is done to Venezuela or, Trump's policy of regime change and of course blowing up the, which is worse in terms of for, for Costa Ricans? Translator: Well, in, in Costa Rica, a lot of people keep admiring Maduro, and he gets criticized a lot because he's criticizing Maduro, so it's very strange. Taylor Jones: In other words, they're, they're so, they're Costa Ricans who, whatever they feel about Maduro's policies, they like him standing up to the United States. Daryl Cagle: So this is from Dave Granlund, and he is got Trump saying, I authorize covert CIA operations in Venezuela. Covert means secrets, so don't tell anyone. Arcadio: [00:21:00] It's a great Trump. Translator: It, it has a very distinctive style to draw Trump because he feels that it's very different from how he would draw it, how, or how you would draw it. It's very distinct. Daryl Cagle: Here's another one from Simanca. Just a, it's a charming cartoon. I love the way he draws the water. Translator: it's like getting further and further apart due to its policies. Daryl Cagle: I think if I was drawing this one, I would've put, Uncle Sam in the upper left standing on the USA, looking down at Venezuela in that position, because I don't quite understand why he's standing in the middle of South America. Taylor Jones: He's visiting. Visit. Daryl Cagle: Yeah. He just visiting now, here's another nice Simanca one with all the, the Venezuelan people fleeing to Brazil. And, it is, it is so true that just so much of the population has fled Venezuela. There's just no food, there's no jobs. The whole place has failed. And, attacking Venezuela isn't really attacking Venezuela anymore. They're all living somewhere else graphically. That's a very fine cartoon. Aren't the buildings wonderful? [00:22:00] Yep. Translator: Yeah, it has a lot of details. And he can also see Yeah. And, and he can also see how, he wrote his handwriting. Mm-hmm. Taylor Jones: Mm-hmm. Karen the, the houses remind me of the casitas that, that people in Latin America put up at Christmas time. Ah, yes. Brazil. Right, that's true. The slums. Yeah. Daryl Cagle: This one is by, Dario Castillejos from, Oaxaca. And, that's very nice. He's, oh, that's Taylor Jones: very, yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Arcadio: He, he's a very, a good friend of mine. He, I know him in, I met him in Mexico in 19, in 2008. Do you remember him? Daryl? Daryl Cagle: Oh, yes. Yes. He was also, there on our trip to Mexico City. Arcadio: He's a very good cartoon. He's a very good man. Yes, Daryl Cagle: he's very good. Here you go again. Arcadio love that oil. Translator: Well, he's running out the oil, he's running out of it, so he will not be able to do that anymore. Yeah. Daryl Cagle: Here's another one from Dario. I think this is very nice. Yeah. Wow. You can see the cartoons are getting a little bit older as we get it further into the slideshow because I put the latest ones first. Here's a recent one. Here's, here's Trump, [00:23:00] ready to attack, Venezuela again by Dario. And that's nice. Translator: Well, he thinks that Mexicans have a particular style of drawing political stuff, and it's very powerful. They're very powerful at drawing it in, especially Dario. Daryl Cagle: This is, a cartoon that could be animated very well with ai, just by making Trump's, body language and his, his arm, swinging with, the missile in it and maintaining all of the nice crosshatching and, and keeping it looking like it was all drawn by. Dario, this is the kind of cartoon that I would recommend that, that he animate. Here's one from you Arcadio. This is also one that would be easy to animate with AI. AI would make the, the growling voice probably as a Trump sounding growling voice, and it would swing the missile back and forth. Pretty good, easy, reliable one to do with AI. Taylor Jones: Daryl, I think, however, I believe you, you mentioned that having a Trump growling voice, and maybe that's easy to find, Daryl Cagle: but I have to say that you just give it a prompt to the, to tell [00:24:00] Trump's voice. Taylor Jones: But I think it's gonna be important seriously, if the more you pursue this, that we're gonna have to have a better range of voices. Because, for instance, the, the Pam Bondi cartoon that you animated of mine, the voice is nothing like Pam Bondi's. Daryl Cagle: I thought, Pam Bondi has a pretty generic Voice. Taylor Jones: I wouldn't say that at all. And, I, you know, I wasn't pretty close. I'm just saying it. I think that's, I think that, for anybody trying. That's a problem. I think it's good. It's a, there's a solution, but it's a problem. Daryl Cagle: Well, I don't know the solution yet. Translator: He also wonders what sound can be added also instead, as well as the voice. Because that would be the interesting part because Yes. He's all pro about being animated, but the what his worries are, what sounds are they gonna find for that caricature? Daryl Cagle: Well, if you're animating your own cartoons, you pick what results you want and you don't have to worry about it. You just don't choose anything you don't like. Taylor Jones: Well one of the things that I think a number of cartoonists, I, I've allowed Daryl to try experimenting with a few of my pieces. But one of the things that anybody who's done [00:25:00] this, what you realize, especially if you watch the car, the animation being created by Grok or some other AI tool, you realize that after a few seconds, it's no longer your cartoon. It's something in between being your cartoon and a totally AI creation. It's a little bit unsettling. You, you get used to it, I guess. But that's something that I've, I've heard a number of cartoonists object to that, which is no longer my cartoon. Daryl Cagle: I felt just the opposite. Taylor. I thought it did, quite a, a nice job of staying true to my drawing. I felt like from starting. Yes. Yes. I thought so. And the ones that we finished with, with yours, that it also stayed true. It may not have stayed true to what your vision would be, but I thought it looked like it was drawn by you Taylor Jones: and what I'm saying is that it? Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's just that I think it's important. I think it's gonna take a while for cartoonists to come around to that, I suppose it's no different than when a, when say a, comic book, has been turned into a movie. I don't mean mar, I don't mean like a Marvel movie, but say an animated feature. I guess the difference there is maybe the comic book artist gets a lot of money. Daryl Cagle: About 20 years ago, [00:26:00] maybe 25 years ago, there was a company that was started with the whole purpose of animating New Yorker cartoons. I'm forgetting the name of it right now, but, it, it failed because, it turned out there was no market for it, but I don't think that their animations were any better than what we're getting from ai. Now, they tried to stay true to the way the cartoonist, hand drawn thing looked. But, I don't think that they were any more true as animators interpreting it than, than the AI interpreting it in on what we're getting now. Taylor Jones: Daryl, the New Yorker talk about cartoons that are meant to be read by the readership. I don't know that would ever go all the, way. Daryl Cagle: It's possible. It's just because New Yorker cartoons are not funny that it didn't succeed. Taylor Jones: That. Translator: Do you think it's a possible suggestion that, caricatures are now animated. Daryl Cagle: If we get more of a market on the web, I think that there's more of a demand for it. We're working hard now on trying to get our cartoons into, aggregation apps. We, it's clear that the publications on the web aren't gonna pay for it, but [00:27:00] maybe the aggregation apps will. And if they do, we've gotta analyze, how much money is each cartoon gonna make on this app? If it makes $25 and it takes me an hour to create the animation, I can't afford to spend my time doing it. If it makes $50, closer. If it gonna make $200, yeah, we should do that. We've gotta see what it turns out to be. But again, it's a supply and demand issue. And, there's a lot of cartoonists that draw a lot of traditional cartoons that don't make $25, and it wasn't worth them drawing the cartoon. I know that feeling. Yes, Taylor Jones: maybe more than anyone. Daryl Cagle: We have a problem with the whole syndication model, which is that about a dozen cartoonists have cartoons that newspapers want, and then all the rest of the 75 cartoonists they don't want. And all these guys, Taylor Jones: Darryl, there's what I used to call a book publisher I dealt with for many years, and I know I've mentioned this before, and that is the Barnes and Noble, I don't know if they're around anymore, the Barnes and Noble theory that 10% of the books the blockbusters are worth [00:28:00] selling. But it's all the other books that are bringing the customers into the bookstore. And, that I'll bet you there's a lot of cartoons that newspaper editors are enjoying immensely but not publishing. Sometimes they're probably laughing. Hysterically had all the blood and gore that some of our cartoonists do, but they don't dare publish them. Daryl Cagle: And I, I, I have that in mind with what we do because, we have a lot of cartoons and cartoonists there, even though most of them don't get published. Much of at all. Taylor Jones: Yeah. Daryl Cagle: And I think that if we didn't have those there, it wouldn't look like much of a store. And, just the fact that it looks like there's a lot of product there is, is attractive. That's not how I feel about the grocery store. The 95% of the grocery store is stuff I'm not interested in, but I like that there's all there. Arcadio: Go ahead. Arcadio. Translator: Guys, how long would it take you to create an animated cartoon for Daryl or for Taylor? Taylor Jones: A good one. I don't know. A long time, huh? It's hard to predict A Grok one. Not very long. Daryl Cagle: We, we sat down and we created, two or three that I thought were pretty good. [00:29:00] Just over a Google meet, Taylor. Taylor Jones: We did. I agree. , You can talk to Daryl about this because he's the technical expert. I'm not. We can try some, Daryl Cagle: try some. Arcadio. We'll set up a time for meet. And Karen, I think we need Karen, Taylor Jones: just, if you were to just try the Grok AI tool, you, first of all, whether you like it or not, you'll be scary. It'll be, you'll be almost scared at how, how efficient it is at animating. Daryl Cagle: Yeah. We made, we made ours in Grok Imagine, , all of the big, AI companies have something similar. I, you know, Gemini has Nano Banana, which I think is probably the most popular one now. But they all have an equivalent. I've, I've tried 'em all, at this point, I think Crock is best for the particular thing that we do, which is not creating things entirely, but making our existing drawings come alive and look . We drew them all the way through for, for only six seconds. This one is from Bogan, which I thought was very nice and appropriate. Now un unless you look very closely and see that he had in mind that that was [00:30:00] Obama there on the right boxing with, Maduro. Actually that may be Hugo Chavez, Obama there. Or maybe that one was too old, but I Arcadio: thought it was very nice. Translator: He says he has a lot to learn from you because he thinks you both are great artists and great drawers, and he also thinks that, and are brilliant, artist. He thinks he has to learn to learn from you Daryl Cagle: as love dad. True. True. Very true. We love you too. Arcadio. Here's a nice one. What do you think? We don't need to translate that. It's just very clear and very nice he's about to fall through very good. Here's another one from Arend Van Dam in the Netherlands. Also a timeless cartoon until, Maduro is gone. Taylor Jones: And again, he was a, he was a bus driver. That's how he started out. Daryl Cagle: This is kind of the same cartoon except with a boat. And here's another one from Rayma. With Maduro running off with all the money as, Chavez's statue, is on the ground. Very nice. This one is from Stephane Peray, a French cartoonist who lives in [00:31:00] Thailand. And I thought it, I thought it was fun. Stephane draws really fast and a lot of his cartoons are just crazy and I like that. And here's one from, Randy Enos, who has just had a stellar career for many decades. Kind of a, one of the founding members of the National Lampoon and, many times Playboy cartoonist. And, he often draws, with a knife cutting into linoleum. That's what this is. In a linoleum print drawn backwards does the lettering backwards. Think of how, how much nicer this is with him cutting the lettering backwards into linoleum rather than, rather than using a computer font. Taylor Jones: Well, da Vinci wrote backwards in his notebooks. Translator: He's saying that, he's definitely gonna do it by hand now instead of using the computer, because he really loved the recommendation you gave him about not using the font, but using his handwriting because he sees that it's [00:32:00] brilliant work right here, right now. Daryl Cagle: Very good. He looks natural. Here's a nice one from Bill Day. He also has very nice lettering. He had another one from you Arcadio. Arcadio: How many cartoons of Venezuela? I did you do a whole lot of Venezuela. This is a very old cartoon. I remember, I I, I, I draw it in 2008. Daryl Cagle: You know, this is also a good cartoon for today. Yes. You, you would take out the opposition card because they're, they're laughing about dialogue with Trump instead of the opposition. Arcadio: Another one, . Translator: He, he was a, a bus driver before, so now by driving the country, well, he has crushed it. So the only thing that is left is a steering wheel Daryl Cagle: and very good with the hand lettering, well, Taylor, I have here extra Maduro cartoons and this is just a beautiful cartoon and I'm glad we didn't miss it.. Arcadio: I like the expression of Maduro, his face. Thank you. Very convincing. Daryl Cagle: Yes. There's that look of superiority and not caring about anybody else. Taylor Jones: Right? Well, he likes, he likes [00:33:00] sweaters and big, big shirts. Daryl Cagle: Very beautiful cartoon. Thank you. Taylor. Read this one for us. Taylor Jones: Oh. Yes. His life was a tribute to the Venezuelans and to Bolivar his death, an imperialist plot. Arcadio: Venezuela. Taylor Jones: Bolivar, of course, was Simon Bolivar, the founder of Venezuela. And that's Hug Chavez in the, in the painting. There. It was after it, right after his death. Very nice. There's another, okay. This one needs no translation. Daryl Cagle: Oh, sure it does. Yankee diplomats go home! Taylor Jones: Right? There we go. Daryl Cagle: No. And again, the tricycle. Taylor Jones: Because, you know, it, it's kind of an image in cartooning that, you know, clowns, clownish, politicians and tricycles go together, Daryl Cagle: and he was a bus driver, so he should have some kind of thing. I've done Taylor Jones: bus drivers, but I, that was a out of date one. Daryl Cagle: I think it's very nice. Translator: Well, he just wanted to say thank you and it has been a pleasure because he considers you to be great artist. So he's very glad that he was able to share this space with you and to say hello to your, to your viewers and uh, to your audience. Daryl Cagle: Thank you, Arcadio. Taylor Jones: First, I think we all owe a, a debt of gratitude to [00:34:00] Karen, for an incredible job. You, you could be working at the U.N. Translator: No, not yet. Thank you. Daryl Cagle: And, thank you for coming stream this episode on kegel cast.com, and, uh, come in next time. And, uh, the more you come in, the more likely we are to do this more often. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.