Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where we're all
about political cartoons, and today we have two brilliant cartoonists joining us.
We've got Michael de Adder and Chris Weyant.
Welcome, gentlemen.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for having us.
Okay, Michael, Here you've got Trump the dandelion spreading seeds of hate.
Tell us about this one.
Michael de Adder: well, this is one of my favorite cartoons from the year because
I had never seen anything like it before.
Before this now, not everything's been done.
So you could probably go search and find something similar someplace, but I had
never seen anything like this before.
Daryl Cagle: this is an optimistic cartoon because he's running out of seeds of hate.
Yeah,
Christopher Weyant: there's a lot more behind him.
Michael de Adder: I think I had just gone for a walk.
I might have walked the dog and, uh, Kick some dandelions across the way there was a
million over there and gave me this idea.
Daryl Cagle: Well, very nice
Michael de Adder: Yeah, it's a great image.
It's a very original image.
Daryl Cagle: I'm still laughing at this one.
Michael de Adder: Yeah
Daryl Cagle: mmm ... Lunch as he presses the launch button.
That's hilarious Oh, thanks.
Yeah, I don't remember how this one came to being.
I just remember wanting to do a launch cartoon and I thought it
looked like lunch and that was it.
That was probably it.
It wasn't any more than that.
Lunch.
I mean, it look at it.
I wrote lunch and it looked like lunch.
Speaker 4: Was it around lunch?
Like, is this observational humor between this, the dandelion?
15
Michael de Adder: minutes later, I was eating lunch.
I'm doing, I'm having a drink.
So if I was going to draw a cartoon now, they'd be drinking.
Daryl Cagle: It makes me hungry too.
Do you embrace the small hands on Trump?
Michael de Adder: I do, but I don't always do it.
I did here, I did reduce the size, but I should have almost reduced it even more.
Speaker: I do notice that, it's a minority of your cartoons where you
have a blue suit and a long tie.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much how I draw Trump.
Uh, bad posture, blue suit, red tie, white around the eyes like a raccoon, orange
skin, and just completely messed up hair.
That's pretty much Trump.
Daryl Cagle: Very good.
Michael de Adder: Every time.
Daryl Cagle: I thought this one was very good.
You got the long tie and blue suit here.
The abortion issue chases him.
Michael de Adder: My ties are getting longer.
Although I've seen everybody's ties are getting longer.
I've seen ties that could go around the planet.
yeah, I haven't seen quite that, but there was a tie last week
And it just stretched forever.
And I thought, no, I'll never go that far with the tie.
Daryl Cagle: I noticed, too, that you are still drawing, caricatures
of Trump that look like Trump would in a photo, rather than developing
your own Trump character look.
Michael de Adder: Well, that is my style, though.
I draw him like he looks like in a photo.
Listen, I remember looking at a pile of cartoons and trying to
figure this out like 20 years ago.
And I always thought the cartoons that were the best captured, the emotion
exactly, So I can draw you a Trump and it would look like my Trump, but I like.
Finding the right expression.
The right expression for me is the cartoon.
So I'm looking to draw the right expression on now.
Sometimes I find it myself.
but I always want to have the right angle.
I want his hair to look like Trump's hair.
I want his posture.
It looks like Trump's posture.
And if I was drawing anybody else, Joe Biden, I want Joe Biden
to look like Joe Biden, posture, face, expression, everything.
So anyways, I know I get criticized for trying, striving to make it
look as much realistic as possible.
Well, I
Daryl Cagle: You get get criticized for that?
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
I'm surprised.
Cause that is your style.
I like that.
Michael de Adder: One criticism I got going to the Washington Post.
But I tried too hard to make them look like photographs.
Christopher Weyant: Oh, yeah, no.
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a really nice, I mean, every, every artist or,
you know, at least all the decent artists have, have something that's really
identifiable about their work, whether it's their writing or their art style,
and with yours, I always like it because that's yours, and that's, you know, I
know what I'm going to get, and, it does change over time because, Trump's changing
and I've noticed yours, you know, holds up with it, but it's still far enough
removed that there's a, it's stylistic.
Michael de Adder: It's not, it's not, to me, it doesn't look like a photograph.
It looks like a cartoon.
That's right.
Well, also
Daryl Cagle: you do such elaborate cross hatching.
it, it looks like you're working hard, but I don't get a sense that
it looks like you're trying too hard or anything is overworked.
Michael de Adder: I don't even think about it at all.
Everybody else thinks about it too, or there's a certain few
that think about it too much.
I draw the way I want to draw and that's it.
And it's a Canadian style to draw the person as realistic as you possibly can.
Like you, you guys have McNally and you have Herblock and you worship
the ground they walk on, but we have.
In this country, it's Aislin, it's, Roy Peterson, it's, Bruce McKinnon.
Like we draw, we strive for the caricature.
The caricature is the cartoon for us and making it look.
Speaker: You just named three crosshatchy guys, do you think of
Canada as more cross hatchy than Canada?
Michael de Adder: We're a crosshatchy country.
Listen, that's not it, there's, I could name five more, there's John
Larter, crosshatcher, in Calgary.
Uh, amazing caricaturists.
and Serge Chapleau from Quebec.
you know, that guy's had hand surgery.
He's crossed out so
much.
I'm going to have hand surgery.
I crosshatched out so much.
Christopher Weyant: And no one would say that about Kevin Kallaugher.
They don't criticize that.
They love it.
So, you know, he does great, great work.
Michael de Adder: It's not very many people criticize.
I'm talking a handful of
Christopher Weyant: good.
Okay.
Let's get
Michael de Adder: petty cartoonists.
I'm taking this one into a giant painting.
I'm thinking of it.
Daryl Cagle: This is hilarious.
He's pouring bleach for everyone.
he encouraged people to drink bleach for their COVID.
and you've done caricatures of each of these guys.
This is, uh, a lot of work to do caricatures of all these guys.
Christopher Weyant: It is.
Michael de Adder: This was all day long.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Michael de Adder: This was all day long and not taking a break.
This is a carpal tunnel cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: Ha
ha.
Christopher Weyant: Unbelievable.
Well, let me ask you, what pen are you working with here?
Are you working with a quill?
Are you, what are you doing here?
Michael de Adder: Oh, this one's, this one's iPad.
This one's on the iPad.
So
I
blew, I just drew, you couldn't draw this in one day on the iPad.
This is a two day drawing on paper.
Daryl Cagle: Wow.
Michael de Adder: Anyways, I just bought six by seven canvas.
I'm going to paint this just to warm up painting.
I'm going to paint this onto a canvas.
I've decided.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Michael de Adder: It won't look like this.
It'll look like the paint.
It'll look more painterly.
Speaker 4: I was going to say, there's another painting I've seen
in a museum that's kind of similar.
Michael de Adder: Oh yeah, yeah, this is, this is a rip off.
I can't even, I can't even remember.
Listen, at one time I could tell you who the artist was (Leonardo da Vinci).
Uh, yeah, this is, this is like Renaissance period art.
This is not, uh, this is Mike de Adder and the Renaissance.
Christopher Weyant: Michelangelo de Adder.
Michael de Adder: No, it's not Michelangelo, but
Daryl Cagle: ha ha ha Okay, Chris, here you have, Trump saying, I
could be a three term president.
And the people behind him are saying, serving one term in a New
York prison, one term in a Georgia prison, one term in federal prison.
That's great.
Christopher Weyant: this did not take me two days.
Daryl Cagle: ha ha ha
let me say that, We syndicate Chris Wyant's editorial cartoons around
the world, and he's one of the most popular cartoonists in our group
with newspaper editors, and he's done award winning children's books and
is a regular New Yorker cartoonist, and he's a Harvard Nieman Fellow
and an NCS Silver Reuben winner.
So very good.
Michael de Adder: Wow.
Christopher Weyant: La
di da.
Daryl Cagle: That's a lot.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, that is a lot.
That's a lot of good stuff.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have this, Baltimore like, container ship of Trump
breaking the bridge between red and blue America without even a scratch.
Christopher Weyant: my neighbor, this is, uh, this is the only person I really
appreciate this cartoon is my neighbor is a CEO of a shipping, container company
that goes between Asia and Europe.
And so he's like, thrilled at this cartoon.
And can I get a print?
It's like the only person that's going to notice this.
Like, yes.
I was like, how did I do with the graphics?
Is it, is it, is it, you know, nautically solid?
Daryl Cagle: Well, excellent cartoon.
Christopher Weyant: I mean, it made a neighbor happy.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have, Trump, with, poor Liberty under the guillotine.
And he says, what's the big
deal.
I said, I'd only do this for a day.
Christopher Weyant: It's a lot of red hats.
Daryl Cagle: do you get angry male when you, commit acts of
violence against the statue of Liberty or the statue of justice?
Christopher Weyant: I don't.
I mean, it's funny.
That's it.
You think that those would be the ones that, uh, that, that would get something.
I just get ones where they feel that I've been, uh, and the most common thing
is that the, the cartoons are biased and unfair and, uh, against Trump.
And this is why, and then they get pretty nasty So it's not
that they react to the violence.
I think they were, especially in America where we're okay with violence
it's just that they really think that I'm being unfair to the time.
I've explained to him like what an editorial cartoonist does.
And do you write opinion columnists?
You know, this is, we're not, we don't do balanced.
That's not the idea here.
It's we do fair by our perspective, by our opinion based in fact.
and with a little bit of hyperbole and exaggeration visually.
So, you know, they never write back except for,
Daryl Cagle: are you guys good about responding to,
reader complaints like that?
Because I burned out on that quite some time ago.
I don't respond and I, I find the conversations kind of go nowhere because
they just restate their point of view.
Michael de Adder: I get involved sometimes.
I get on these kicks where I try to slam them cleverly and then I post them online.
You know what I mean?
but it takes a little bit of work to do that.
And, I lose interest quick.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Yeah.
I I'll write back.
It's in my emails me every once in a while.
I usually don't do much of that because that, that, that sort of thing.
But if I do things on social media, especially with Instagram, I'm not doing
it for the, purpose of the individual I'm responding to, but for the audience
who I do notice, read the comments and respond and connect to either what I'm
saying, which is usually relatively fair.
I used to be a little bit more snarky.
but I felt like it was, you know, I don't do that until they get stupid.
and then they like it's a never you don't get into an argument
publicly with a cartoonist,
Daryl Cagle: i'd say the the main email I get is just a short "Where
are all the Biden cartoons?"
Michael de Adder: Yeah Yeah, and now do Biden is what I that's what I hear
most of now do Biden But they don't see the Biden here like on social media.
Like What is the point of saying that when There's two, two social medias.
There's the right and the left, and the two don't see each other's posts.
Like, so if I draw Trump, most people on the right see those because they're
being shared for the reason of let's all attack this cartoonist for daring to
do Trump and on the, other side of it, when they're angry, they see, you know,
the Biden stuff anyways, I don't get it.
I don't,
Daryl Cagle: I asked you guys to send in Trump cartoons today, cause
we've been doing more Trump themed podcasts because I have found that
the readers want to look at Trump.
Podcasts and they don't want to look at anything else and you look at the
difference between one that shows Trump on a cover image and the other ones,
the other ones just don't get traffic.
Our traffic comes from YouTube and from our own mailing list.
Mainly, we pick up new readers on, on YouTube and they are almost all of them
anti Trump and love these Trump podcasts and any other issue they don't care about.
Christopher Weyant: Well, it's, I mean, it's, it's a historic character
in our, you know, for our times and they're concerned and my experience
has changed in terms of political cartooning, the feedback that I get,
which is now cartoons as therapy to, you know, where, uh, people are feeling
incredibly frustrated and isolated and feeling the system is not working,
which is on both sides of the fence.
. But they are really happy to see someone, especially when Trump is in power,
to be able to stand up and, scream at the king and call him a buffoon
and call him out on his, on, on the ridiculous things that he was doing
or the hateful things he was doing.
And so I got a lot of people, saying to me, thank you, that got me through
a really bad news day, to have a laugh at, you know, to make it seem like.
You know, there's still others out there like us.
There are other people who have the same ethics or morals or
belief or Belief in government.
So there's a difference.
I didn't get that kind of thing before him.
Daryl Cagle: I should add that, most editors are at conservative papers
they're rural or suburban smaller papers predominate and they tend to be more
Trumpy than the large urban papers but
they print the same opinionless cartoons that the liberal editors do.
so the conservative cartoonists don't get more reprints.
Uh, by and large, it's crazy.
Michael de Adder: Because editors these days don't want to ruffle feathers.
I went into this business and in a time period where Editors want to
ruffle feathers, or the editors that I worked with wanted to ruffle feathers.
they might complain that they want conservative cartoons, but when they
see the conservative cartoons, they go, We can't run that, we'll get
too many complaints on the left.
And, so they go back to the regular cartoons and pick something
that's pretty in the middle.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, and I, and I think there's, I mean, there's also
with most cartoonists and, and, and Michael, tell me if you go this way
too, is like, I think most of us don't approach it as I'm a liberal cartoonist
and I'm looking for a liberal issue.
I look at the issues of the day and make an opinion about how I feel on that.
If I decide that, yeah, you know, there's nothing.
I have no problem making fun of Democrats or Biden or anyone else if I feel that
they are offending in the greatest way, that day on that news item.
Michael de Adder: Well, I don't consider myself a liberal cartoonist.
I consider myself more in the centers.
I don't really peg myself as anything.
But I, but if I had to define myself, I put myself in the middle and nobody puts
me in the middle, really, you know, like they tend to put me to the left and far
left and I'm not, I'm just not that guy.
If you actually look at my work, I do, Some work that's, would
be considered conservative, you know, not a lot, mind you.
Daryl Cagle: Other syndicates classify their artists as,
liberal, conservative and moderate.
And, The cartoonists don't like that.
We started off doing it just because the other ones did,
and the cartoonists objected.
They really didn't like it, so we stopped it.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
I see this more, with conservative cartoonists, where there's not that many
of them, and so when you see them, they will not take any shot at their leader.
Sometimes they have to go through, backbends to try to not criticize you.
Like that's the subject you're going to talk about today when we have this huge
thing happening and you're going to pick this tiny little thing so you don't have
to discuss what this president was doing.
I find that To me, that drives me crazy professionally, like,
because I didn't do that with Obama.
I didn't do it with Biden that you don't, you don't, it doesn't matter.
You do the big issue of the day and you do the thing that they're politicians.
You lampoon a politician.
Michael de Adder: If you look at my, my Obama cartoons, you would
think I, you know, I, I would, I tackled the issue of the day.
As the issue of the day.
I didn't feel like I was promoting Obama.
Yes.
I thought Obama was a pretty good president, but I criticized him more
than I flattered him for sure, because he was the president of the United States.
Christopher Weyant: That's right.
Michael de Adder: Trump because he's anti democratic, he's anti democracy.
So we're living in a, you know, we were living with a president who
was undermining the entire system.
That's far different than, uh, president, uh, Who's right or
left, or a president that you disagree with, a lot like George W.
Bush.
I didn't go after George W.
Bush like I did Trump, because George W.
Bush, although I did go after George W.
Bush, but George W.
Bush wasn't undermining democracy.
Anyways, go ahead.
Daryl Cagle: we do count these things, you know, the cartoons are keyworded
and it's not hard for me to find how many Obama cartoons there are by.
Michael de Adder: I know you could, you could embarrass us.
Daryl Cagle: During the Obama years, the liberal cartoonists
were not drawing much Obama.
And, it was just, it was true, you know, now the conservative ones,
don't draw Trump, which is, outrageous since he dominates the news.
But, on the other side, it was, the case too.
and now we're not seeing very many Biden cartoons, but I think that's not entirely
because the cartoonists are liberal, but also because Biden just isn't funny.
Christopher Weyant: Well, the problem with Biden is that he's a pretty middle
of the road politician who's has a pretty good middle or solid middle of the road
presidency, and there's not a whole lot there, but if you didn't have this.
It's massive cancer in the room.
You could focus more on policy or foreign policy or Israel.
There's a lot of things that you could focus on how he's handling,
but that's not the story of the day.
We have a former president who's, just convicted of 34 counts as a felon.
that's the story I'd love to talk about, you know, the infrastructure
bill, but not in face of that.
Daryl Cagle: It's true we don't have the passion for, for Biden.
I don't like Biden.
I never forgave him for Anita Hill and championing, Clarence Thomas.
I, haven't liked him for decades,
Christopher Weyant: but he's a pretty conservative Democrat.
Yeah,
Daryl Cagle: he is very conservative.
He opposed, uh, abortion for most of his career.
I don't like him.
That said, it's hard to have any real passion about that compared to Trump.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael de Adder: You're looking at, Apocalypse Now
compared to, On Golden Pond.
You know what I mean?
what do you want to draw?
I mean, I'd rather draw about Apocalypse Now than, On Golden Pond.
Christopher Weyant: Although they both have loons.
Daryl Cagle: this is a great cartoon, Chris.
welcome to Mar a Lago Sign, three days since the last incident.
that's very good.
I also think when you're soft and funny like this, you're more
effective at being persuasive.
You know, so many of the cartoons are name calling cartoons and,
I like name calling cartoons.
They're, they're gratifying to people that agree, but, softer
and with humor, I think, has much more chance of, persuasion.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, I don't know.
I like, I like a good hard hitting.
I mean, I do cartoons for, obviously, for the, for the New Yorker, and, and we tend
to be, they're more clever, and, and they can do certain things that they don't.
Traditional political cartoons can't do.
But at the same time, I love political cartoons, newspaper style, because
they're just stronger, which I love.
You know, they have a visual element to them that you can really, do something
that's harder hitting, but maybe it's less popular, I don't know, or less effective.
Daryl Cagle: So you have the kids in science class as the eclipse is happening,
and the teacher says, Who knows what's the name of the big event coming up
that will cast America into darkness?
And the little girl says, Trump's second term?
I don't know.
Michael de Adder: Okay, I gotta admit this this one's this one's a great cartoon.
I think
Christopher Weyant: Thanks,
Michael de Adder: because because you don't expect the girl to say that
Christopher Weyant: The I did get I did get hate mail on this and it was
because I didn't draw a whiteboard I'm still drawing a goddamn chalkboard
And I that one I wrote him back like I know there's not my head
I've I have kids in school.
I'm not drawing whiteboard.
It's really boring to draw.
It's a whiteboard , like I wanna draw chalkboard.
It's like it's my classroom in my head and I have to control the universe my way.
Michael de Adder: Don't most classrooms have a chalkboard and a whiteboard?
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that's, if that's your biggest issue with that, that's
why I, I like those like here.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have caught orange handed, Trump with his tie
tying up the hands for January 6th.
Michael de Adder: That tie doesn't have to be that big.
Holding those small hands . it's true.
I went a little far.
Daryl Cagle: Also, his hands aren't orange.
You know, they're, they're pink.
Like they're his ears.
They're, he doesn't do his ears.
He doesn't do the, under the ears.
And often he doesn't get the bottom part of his neck.
Christopher Weyant: It's true.
I had to do it just for the, for the gag . Uh, I, I normally do him flush color.
'cause he does, we know where his, his, his real body.
Michael de Adder: Absolutely.
I knew why those hands were orange.
Daryl Cagle: And here you have the Trump presidential library.
you know, I did a podcast about Trump toilet cartoons and, I searched for.
Toilet.
And since then I've been finding all these Trump toilet cartoons
where artists did not put the keyword toilet into their cartoon.
so I never found it for that podcast.
very frustrating for me.
Michael de Adder: When I was at the Washington Post, I wasn't
allowed to draw the toilet.
Daryl Cagle: Did they have a rule about no toilets?
Michael de Adder: And I, I actually got one in before the,
Christopher Weyant: did you, did you go with it?
Michael de Adder: I had a rule when, I think this would be before new
management, Took over because it was this was from Jo-Ann Armao, who was
the editorial page editor, she didn't like toilets, and I think maybe,
maybe Fred Hyatt didn't too, so.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, I haven't, I usually don't get
a lot of luck drawing toilets.
Editors don't like it.
They don't like it.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, I don't think newspapers really like the toilet thing.
Daryl Cagle: we have a list of things.
I tell the cartoonists that editors don't like, like, Hitler and swastika
and toilet and poop and bodily fluids.
but we don't disallow any of that.
And, I just noticed that when the cartoonists draw it anyway, because,
you know, they follow their passion.
They don't take my advice.
those cartoons just don't get reprinted because the editors
are consistent about that.
Christopher Weyant: There was, was this one reprinted?
I don't remember.
Daryl Cagle: So here's your Valentine's day cartoon with Trump admiring himself
on the park bench and cupid says I've
tried everything but
he's
only in love with himself That's very cute.
Michael de Adder: This is a very good cartoon
Christopher Weyant: This is, this is, this is well worn territory, guys,
Michael de Adder: I didn't see any, anything like that before, but I'm, I'm,
you know, now that I'm, now that you say that, I'm sure this has been done.
Christopher Weyant: Well, you know, you get the, well, at least in terms of the,
Cupid, I love a good, trope, you know, like, which is, you know, I'm nothing.
I like better than desert Island cartoons and being
Michael de Adder: Oh I love taking a
trope and
turning it into making it my own.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
One more, one more way.
If you can make it, I don't know
how,
how originally I did this trope though, but
Michael de Adder: I get a kick out of when you
do some trope and someone says I did that.
I'm like, I did that.
Everybody did that.
That's not the one.
Did you do it in a new one?
We did it in the last three or four weeks.
When it's a trope.
When not, not every cartoon.
Just the, just the island type cartoons.
Or Taxpayer being held up by his feet or something.
Yeah.
Christopher Weyant: Well, it's, it's always the same thing for me.
It's like, I love the trope.
As long as the artist, and I think it's a pretty clear line.
As long as the artist is bringing something new.
Right.
If you can, it's to me, it's like, like jazz, right?
If you can, can you do a standard and find a new way to do it?
And just sounds like something new.
Fantastic.
You know, if you're doing the same one that we read a thousand times,
Oh, like the statue of liberty.
And she does, you know, it drives me crazy.
Like, so
Daryl Cagle: I get angry
email from aspiring cartoonists who see a cartoon on the site that
is, a trope that we all know is a trope, but they don't know it.
And they drew it and they sent me a copy of their cartoon and say,
this cartoonist stole my cartoon.
They're so angry.
Michael de Adder: I've gotten it from well established cartoonists, you
know, like, it's just crazy sometimes.
Daryl Cagle: I should add, too, you have the big upper lip on Trump.
There's a tradition among cartoonists that when there's something interesting
about somebody's face, you make it bigger.
Often that's a nose here on Trump, of course, he's got an interesting upper lip.
A lot of cartoonists draw that as kissy lips or fish lips or circle lips.
but, you know, it's, it's, uh, Is interesting and so you make it big
and that makes cartoon sense and his hair is big and his belly is
big And that's just what cartoonists do that's just an explainer.
Michael de Adder: Yeah So how many cartoonists draw Trump
with a donut for a month?
many
Daryl Cagle: Well enough that you can do it and it's you
know, it's a definitional Trump
Michael de Adder: I don't think he does look like he should have a donut.
I just think that So many cartoonists do him with a donut mouth that
the reader has gotten used to it.
You know, I don't do it but we as cartoonists have made it a thing.
Yeah,
its a lovely day, but it's all labeled unfair, and that is how he sees the world.
You know, if you if he was standing back counting his blessings, rich and powerful
and has a lovely, although simultaneously ugly, family, It's a lovely world for him.
Christopher Weyant: he lives in a level of hell.
Michael de Adder: It's kind of like, We're all a tiny bit angry that he
seems to get away with everything, And that he's so rich, so privileged.
he could have, A great life, but he chooses to see the world this way.
He's actually has a miserable life We should take solace in the fact
that he actually thinks that his life stinks but he can't be happy.
Christopher Weyant: No, it's true.
I I wrote somebody had written me on social media And I had written
them back because they were talking about being unfair and how this
this trial was unfair to him I said everything is rigged against him.
He is a victim of everything Everything is unfair and I said, why do you support
someone who is So, uh, such a victim and so weak, like it's crazy if he's, if
he's, everyone can take advantage of him.
Why, why bother?
He has no power.
Daryl Cagle: So here, a young George Washington says, of course I didn't lie.
It's not like I was trying to cover up an affair I had with a porn star.
Very good.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, it is good.
Christopher Weyant: This is the problem when you, when you're
having me on a podcast, I'm gonna look at all my work and it's okay.
, you know, it's fun.
It gets the point across.
It's good.
Good enough.
Um, yeah.
You know, it's, uh, it's a, it is what it is.
It's a good, it's a, that's an okay cartoon.
I don't put any cartoons on this podcast that I don't enjoy myself.
Oh, you might enjoy them.
Yeah.
Other people might enjoy them.
I dunno how much I am
. Daryl Cagle: So here you have, Trump who is really being very successful in
delaying all of these cases, and probably with those delays not having to suffer any
consequences, in the hourglass plugging up, making greater delay with the judge
saying, maybe I need to call a plumber.
It's, it's very true.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Now this cartoon, I liked a little better.
It's, uh, again, it's a hourglass trope, but, but, it really feels to me this.
Especially this is during his massive delays, the court cases
when he was doing one delay after another and it was being successful.
Michael de Adder: So did you originally think it needed a caption?
Or did you add the caption later because you know more
people would get the cartoon?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, you
actually didn't need the judge in what he's doing at all.
Michael de Adder: But I've added captions where I didn't need them
because I know that it will lead to 20 percent more people getting it.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, I think with this one, it was, it felt like
that when I think I did the original sketch that it was going to leave it.
And even if I, if I cut off the side of it, as I look on the screen, it
would hold there's something missing.
I think, and it's energy, you know, like, it's and maybe the way
I'm drawing it, perhaps, but it felt like it needed a commentary.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, and I, I know, yeah.
As a cartoonist, I read that caption as, It'll make it 20 percent better.
Yeah.
Or more understandable.
Yeah.
More understandable.
Daryl Cagle: You know, the international cartoonists like
to do cartoons with no words.
And, they, they strive to that.
Yeah.
And, I always feel like if there's a chance I can do it with no words,
I'd kind of like to go there, just because I think that's kind of a goal.
Michael de Adder: Oh, I love no words.
I'd like to do a book of no words.
I tried, I try to do no words every day.
But, but hardly any cartoon needs no words.
Daryl Cagle: I would say that as we look at the stats from the
cartoons, I don't notice wordless cartoons performing any better.
Perhaps they perform worse.
Um,
Christopher Weyant: yeah, I don't know.
Daryl Cagle: So Michael, here you've got Judge Mershon and
Trump is doing his golf practice.
Michael de Adder: Didn't need a caption either.
Daryl Cagle: It really didn't.
Judge Mershon says, keep this up president Trump and I'll hold you in contempt.
excellent cartoon.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
So did you feel, did you draw this one and think, I just,
I have to just add something?
Michael de Adder: No, actually, although it looks like, uh, I
could have, no, I had the caption.
I started with the caption.
But I could, but now looking at it, I could have removed it.
Although, you know what,
Christopher Weyant: it's different.
A little bit different
Michael de Adder: This appeared in Halifax.
It probably needed a caption for a US audience.
it could have taken the caption out,
Daryl Cagle: so here you have the rushed event for Donald Trump.
I think this was a January 6th hearings, cartoon.
Michael de Adder: No,
this was just yesterday.
Oh, just yesterday.
Um, you know, they are not running away from it.
They are running towards it full steam.
Just, uh, all the crazy arguments.
They're rushing to defend Trump.
They're not rushing, running away.
They're running over, they're running over the flag to defend Donald Trump.
Daryl Cagle: Of course.
And I should have seen that.
This is a good example of where I will edit myself out in order to look smarter.
Michael de Adder: It says the Rush to Defend Donald Trump, they're
rushin to defend Donald Trump.
They're rushing.
Now.
Now that you say that, what it needs is a podium, I think.
If I had, uh, because this didn't perform well on social media, and now I know why.
Because it looks like they're running away.
When you have steps and everything, it looks like you're running away.
I should have done the flag up in the corner, them running towards a
podium to, to defend Donald Trump.
Now that I think about it.
So there you go.
Daryl Cagle: you know, kind of in the back of my head, I think running
from left to right is away and running from right to left is to.
Michael de Adder: Hey, do you, Hey, maybe that's the solution.
Yeah, I didn't, I thought this was a good cartoon up until like three seconds ago.
Well, I
Christopher Weyant: Welcome to the podcast
. Michael de Adder: We're live on a podcast only to discover that my cartoon
Christopher Weyant: right, right.
Well see that's what you have to stand where I am.
You know, like just go, ah, they're all kind of suck.
Rush
your way up.
Michael de Adder: You know what?
My cartoons all kind of suck.
That's the problem.
. Daryl Cagle: Oh, . Oh, that's,
so here you have the GOP elephant afraid of the mouse, but the
mouse's shadow is Donald Trump.
And that's charming wordless cartoon.
Christopher Weyant: That's right.
Michael de Adder: Yeah.
This is a wordless cartoon.
This is, this is the, that is why I like this cartoon.
Most of all.
It is absolutely wordless.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
That's, that's, it's great, great composition.
Michael de Adder: I was gonna say that's why I also like the Last Supper one.
It's also wordless.
It just has everybody and the earlier Last Supper cartoon.
Very good.
So King Charles in red with his notorious portrait and Donald Trump
in orange with his notorious mugshot.
Yeah.
I'm sure there were several of these, making the rounds now, but
at the time it was right off the, this was the first cartoon I drew.
Daryl Cagle: What did you think about King Charles's portrait?
Michael de Adder: I liked King Charles's portrait.
I thought it was awesome, actually.
I thought it was a great painting.
Daryl Cagle: You know, if it was an editorial cartoon, we would have all
assumed it was blood and some kind of metaphor to British colonialism.
Michael de Adder: Hey,
maybe it is British.
Yeah, the artist did that.
I tend to think the artist did that and maybe fooled King Charles.
Which made it better for me, you know, you get away with painting a monarch all in
red with just their head and hands, not
red.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah,
I thought it was like one of the best things that, that, that he's
been able to do, to allow that to, to come to, you know, to and
to view it is like, it's like, it looks like his own Netflix special.
Yeah
Daryl Cagle: You know if he'd have done green instead of red it would have been
an allegory to his environmentalism and everybody would have said Meh, but
Michael de Adder: It was green like the obama portrait where it's he's all
in the grass or the leaves behind him I think that's a great painting too.
Daryl Cagle: I love that painting
Obama
Michael de Adder: reminded me of that painting, you know, and when you
said green it's just Underlying it
Daryl Cagle: but there's no, uh, no controversy or interest if it's green You
Michael de Adder: Yeah, trust me, the artist loves the fact that there's
so much controversy over this.
The artist is taking this right to the bank.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Trump at the shooting gallery at the
carnival collecting all the money as people are shooting at the press.
And of course you don't win at any of these carnival games.
I guess they can win mega hats.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, like the hats.
Yeah, that's a really nice image.
That's great.
Michael de Adder: Oh my God.
I forgot.
You know what?
I forgot that I did the MAGA hat.
I've looked at this cartoon so many times in the last three years and
just, it just doesn't register.
It's like looking at a Coca Cola logo.
It does nothing for me because It always appears on my feed or whatever.
I forgot I did all those mega hats.
That was, that was a, can I, can I give myself a compliment?
That was a good idea.
Compliment myself.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have the amazing Kreskin, the mentalist and the
unbelievable Trump, the declassifier Yeah.
Sure.
Christopher Weyant: Paul O'Kreskin.
That's great.
Michael de Adder: That's, that's actually one of my favorite caricatures
of Trump, and I don't know why, but it just, I just liked it.
I just remember being, when I was drawing it.
Anyways.
Christopher Weyant: It's kind of a hard angle to go
to.
Yeah, yeah, there's really without his hands not blocking his face.
There's like so much information.
Daryl Cagle: Well his hands are so small.
Michael de Adder: The
paper, like my originals are all on
paper.
This size.
I draw these things huge.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Like the 24 by 18.
That's a 24 by 18 drawing.
That's too big.
I'm stupid for doing it.
I should be drawing little and I wouldn't spend so much time drawing.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah,
but you just
showed us that you're backwards and we've been looking at the
mirror image of you all this time.
Michael de Adder: Okay, there you go.
I just switched
Daryl Cagle: Oh, very good.
Okay.
So now we have the actual correct, uh, not mirror image view if you like
Michael de Adder: On the right
Daryl Cagle: I have no idea if people are mirror image or not.
So here you have, uh, Donald Trump, uh, at fairytale time, saying, saying
to the kids, I also declassified this.
Michael de Adder: I, I, I have to admit, I, when I came up with this
idea, I did laugh to myself, not that I laughed at my own cartoon.
I mean, But you should.
This is a hilarious, I couldn't drive fast enough.
I was so excited for this.
Daryl Cagle: It's a little reminiscent to me of George W.
Bush.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
On 9
11.
Michael de Adder: And you know what?
I, you know, like I said, I get most of my ideas through life.
I think I watched something on 9 11 that had George W.
Bush telling us something before this.
Daryl Cagle: So here, self reflection, Elon Musk is thinking,
I was wrong to buy Twitter.
Vladimir Putin thinking, I was wrong to invade Ukraine.
And Donald Trump thinking, Melania was wrong about Dr.
Oz.
That's cute.
That's good.
Thanks.
That's good.
Michael de Adder: I strive for cute every day.
Christopher Weyant: You got the tie in there.
Michael de Adder: Oh
yeah.
Daryl Cagle: You did.
It's a tiny, tiny little hand in a pocket.
Michael de Adder: It's almost too much that tie.
It's almost like you didn't have to put the tie.
It didn't have to have the tie in there.
Christopher Weyant: It's our
eyes.
I really love watching like artist decisions.
So like, you know, cause we'd have to, you know, our, our point is to try
and get you to move your eyes around the paper in certain way, right?
We have to, we magically direct you without you knowing and make
it so still seem like a cartoon.
So I always like these, these little, little art directions,
whether they're purposeful or not, but they serve a purpose.
Daryl Cagle: Uh, and you've got Trump drinking a Coke and
Putin clearly drinking vodka.
What does Elon Musk drinking?
Michael de Adder: I don't know.
I didn't, I, I probably, it definitely, definitely, uh, that's vodka.
I don't know what I'd have Elon Musk draw.
I probably just made scotch.
But I did get scotch too.
I do, as I'm drawing, think about the drawing the entire time.
I do think about.
Uh, I'm not so sure, and I bet you I did look up quickly and realize that
looking for a drink for Donald, for Elon Musk was, uh, gonna be too hard.
But I probably did spend 15 minutes trying to look up what Elon Musk might be, might
have drank, or what he drinks regularly.
Cause I, I do like the, you know, I do like it when victim
or the person I'm drawing sees a detail in it that they go, Whoa.
So I probably did look up, one of these events he attended and look for a drink,
but realizing very quickly that that was going to be an impossible task.
Daryl Cagle: It's macho and self confident cartoonists that don't
put labels on their caricatures.
And, I don't think I've ever seen you label a caricature, and that's very good.
Michael de Adder: I do label caricatures of people who, you won't readily know
like a governor of a state or something, or a, a lesser known governor of state
I might label, like, Tuberville or something, like a guy that the average
person wouldn't recognize right away.
Daryl Cagle: So, here you have Trump as a baby, on a belly carrier from Putin giving
a speech, and, he's, another version of the lapdog cartoon, it is scary.
Michael de Adder: Yeah.
this is one, this is the first cartoon I do this so long ago that
I think this was the first cartoon where I finally nailed Trump.
I finally am happy with, how I'm depicting Trump.
Christopher Weyant: yeah,
it's great.
Michael de Adder: How
long ago was, but it was, I remember thinking this is the best
Trump I've done to that point.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, it really, it really looks like him.
And then, you know.
Stylized as well,
Michael de Adder: yeah, and I worked really hard to get Putin looking
Christopher Weyant: Putin's and Putin's tough actually He's the
I find Putin harder than he looks, you think you got him.
Michael de Adder: There's, there are some people that you would think would
be easy to draw, but that have odd angles that you can't capture easily.
And Putin's one of them to get them
to look
Christopher Weyant: There's been no cartoonist convention of what
a Putin caricature looks like.
There's a huge range of different Putins.
Michael de Adder: Well, you have to draw more around now.
It used to be that you do his Hickner, like big nose hook, And then you do a
tiny mouth, but then the chin has to go so tight up, like almost no chin.
But now, Putin's gained all the weight underneath his chin.
You can't get a, if you want, he looks too young if you draw him the old way, so now
you have to draw him slightly different.
And this was before, like since the war, he's gained 20 or 30 pounds.
, I find they're harder to draw at first.
So at the beginning of their term, like Obama, let's talk about Obama.
Like at the beginning, he was a young, youthful looking guy.
By the end of it, he had bags under his eyes, grey hair.
there was a premier of New Brunswick, Frank McKenna, who started off 45.
I know I'm an obscure politician from Canada.
He was hard to draw.
I couldn't get him.
But then as he got older, he became so easy.
Bags under his eyes.
Like, his whole face looked like it was melting by the end.
That's what politics does for you.
Does to you.
Christopher Weyant: And there's also, you get, you know, like a good character
caricature, I think also starts to bring, you know, you're not just trying to get
the likeness, it's their personality.
Like with Putin, there's all this, it's who he is and how he ca you know,
you got this posture right there.
Like you, he carries himself.
Um, you know, uh, same with, same with, uh, Trump.
The, the, the various particular posture that he has is, and all
of that, that comes into fruition of who we think of this person as.
And then you bring that into their features.
otherwise it's just a straight drawing.
Michael de Adder: Yeah,
Daryl Cagle: This is a, field of the dead in Ukraine as Trump
is calling Putin a genius.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, I
was drawing lots of, landscapes full of the dead at the, at the Washington Post.
I don't think it went over very well.
Daryl Cagle: fields of the dead, especially the oceans of blood
that we often see, especially now with, the international conflict.
Michael de Adder: War, I mean, we're in the process of two major
conflicts and a whole bunch of blood.
Other conflicts.
I mean, it's hard not to draw dead people right now, you know?
I mean, that's what war is.
it's killing people.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, and you're trying to make an impact.
I mean, you're trying to, say to the viewer, pay attention to
this and it should be strong.
I don't see why,
Michael de Adder: I mean, one of those standard cartoon scenarios is to have
The politicians say something like this, totally delusional, in an absolute.
apocalyptic wasteland, you know, of, death and destruction.
I mean, that is cartooning 101.
If that's not the number one means by which you come up with an idea, I don't
know what is, but you know, like somebody wrote that there were only 26 or 28 ideas.
Wasn't that, I can't remember who said that, but there were
only a certain number of ideas.
I tend to think that, you know, having a politician say something benign or
totally delusional, while reality is falling down behind them is a standard
idea, you know, a standard cartoon trope.
I don't even know if that's a trope, but it's a way, a means by
which you get to an idea, or get to
some type of trope.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, cartoonists want to draw powerful
cartoons, and I think we would all be more proud of a cartoon that made
people cry than made people laugh.
Um, That's tough and rare.
Michael de Adder: when I get a comment from a reader that this cartoon made them
cry, that is the, I mean, depending on the cartoon, I mean, if you try to make them
laugh and they say that, it's not so good.
but when someone says I, I actually broke down after reading this cartoon,
that is the ultimate compliment to me.
Like, an emotional response.
It might not be crying, but some emotional response that besides laughing,
is more, means I've succeeded more than a giant laugh or a belly laugh.
Daryl Cagle: here is another death cartoon with Trump.
Of course, do you mind if I play through with the famous photo of the
two dead drowned refugees in Europe.
Michael de Adder: The biggest complaint I got from this cartoon
from people was that Trump would never ask if he, might play through.
Like I got so many of those.
It was like, so this cartoon went viral.
Like nothing I ever saw before.
I had, I think I had a hundred thousand shares within an hour.
And many of them will, he was too polite.
Daryl Cagle: the hair is particularly funny here.
Very often he does look like there's some kind of dead animal on top.
This was the
period where I had, I had his hair, that piece that I have so distinctly
drawn, many of my trumps at this period, the hair was a separate thing.
It looked like a hair piece.
So that was just playing.
And
what do you call this period?
Michael de Adder: the hair piece period.
Daryl Cagle: here's sports washing.
You've got a Trump on the green as.
the Saudis who have bought professional golf are sweeping dead
Khashoggi in the saw under the green.
Michael de Adder: A funny thing is I had just done a sweep something under
the carpet not long before that, but this works so well as sweeping under
the carpet that I had to do it again.
I try to not do the similar ideas.
for years after I draw them, but this one worked so well as sweeping
under the carpet, I had to do it.
All the negative space is really great too.
Daryl Cagle: So, the donkey and the elephant sitting on the couch
watching January 6th hearings.
The donkey says, The public hearings into January 6th are riveting!
And the elephant says,
Look!
Hunter Biden's laptop!
Michael de Adder: Can I get you to read these cartoons to every reader?
Trump painting the, the targets on himself, the targets with the paint
of Mar a Lago documents, January 6th and election interference.
And he says,
so unfair!
How dare they keep makin me a target!
very good.
I was, I was disappointed I didn't get like a target sponsorship out of this,
Daryl Cagle: why the hell don't cartoonists get sponsorships?
Christopher Weyant: Because you can't control
what we're going to
say.
That's why, I mean they do, we as New Yorker cartoonists, we get,
we, we, we do a lot of ad work.
No one wants it from political cartoonists because it's, it's a, we, our whole
point is that we're, We're out here to do and say stuff a little stronger.
You never know what's gonna come up
Daryl Cagle: back in the fifties.
Philip Morris used to sponsor the National Cartoonist Society, and
you know, those were days when the cartoonists were all drawing cigarettes,
smoking in their cartoons, and, the cartoonists were all, you know, they,
they traditionally spoke cigars.
and Philip Morris would throw big parties for the cartoonists.
Christopher Weyant: They
should still do it.
Daryl Cagle: The gun companies too.
They really need more, more love from the cartoon.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Okay.
I'll skip that.
Daryl Cagle: So here we've got, Trump holding his E.
Jean Carroll, sexual abuse verdict label.
And he says, I gulp, never seen this woman before in my life.
And it is justice squeezing him.
that's a satisfying cartoon for the moment.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, I think when I came out, when there was, we had, there's
been a lot of them kind of in the same vein afterwards, but then nobody knows
when you did it, so then it goes, it looks like you did it with everybody else.
I have a question.
Do you always stick
Michael de Adder: with the three finger cartoon hand?
Christopher Weyant: I do.
I love a good three finger.
I think I would, Bugs Bunny.
Michael de Adder: On close ups, I always do four fingers.
Christopher Weyant: yeah.
Michael de Adder: I don't always do three, but, I thought, I probably 50 50.
I go through a period where I'm three fingers, because, only because.
It depends how it looks.
Christopher Weyant: I'm like, the less lines I have, that's my goal, is
to eventually get it down to There's three lines on a page and I'm done.
And it's, and it said everything I, it looked like my sketch.
Michael de Adder: And my goal is to give myself carpal tunnel every day.
, Daryl Cagle: here you have, two beggars on the street.
The poor guy says, Will work for food.
And Trump's sign says, Will do terrible things to America and play
the victim for millions in campaign contributions.
Please give suckers.
Michael de Adder: That's a good cartoon.
that's just a simple cartoon that seems obvious that isn't.
That's a really good idea.
Christopher Weyant: Oh, thanks.
Daryl Cagle: Very nice.
Christopher Weyant: It held up, which I love when they hold up.
Yeah.
That was done a while ago.
And you're like, oh, it's still good.
When you have one that like, oh, it's also sad.
But, because things haven't changed for the better.
Daryl Cagle: So here we've got the orange wave, the angry elephant
leaving Trump in the garbage can.
Wonderful that Trump is defined by that wisp of hair and the tie.
But this is like a cartoon that was wishful thinking for only a couple days.
Christopher Weyant: It looked like it was going to be that way for
a bit.
That one did not hold up.
Sadly,
Michael de Adder: when what was this following?
Christopher Weyant: This is this is right after the 22 election.
we thought, yeah, they lost again and just thought, okay, everybody,
you know, people are becoming more vocal and Republicans were become
more vocal and he's just a loser and he's losing, you know, congressional
campaigns and everyone he backs.
He loses.
Michael de Adder: Yeah, it was a short period.
It felt like 15 minutes.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah, less until January.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another wishful thinking cartoon with the grand old
party in shambles from the wrecking ball.
And, the sign says, coming soon, the Trump party donate.
Donations welcome.
And the GOP elephant says, sigh, I wish an elephant could forget.
But, you know, They don't seem to show any, sadness or regret and
they do seem to forget very freely.
Christopher Weyant: I think this is, this one was drawn, and which I
sometimes will do, which is addressing the old party, which is still there
and is not happy about the party that they have, that, what it's becoming,
and they're being left behind.
And they've lost control there's a lot of Republicans, where I
live who do not subscribe to this particular Republican party.
Daryl Cagle: But they still vote Republican.
Christopher Weyant: Yeah.
Well, cause you're not going
to, because it's become politics in the, in America is a sport, right?
They fly flags, you root for them.
You don't change teams.
it's not about what your platform or what your issues are.
It's just, I chose this.
I would never go to that side.
And that's a really, you know, we have a lot of purples who
are playing it both ways, but
Michael de Adder: this is a rhino cartoon and I got that it's a
rhino cartoon right off the bat.
Daryl Cagle: And it's also our last cartoon.
Christopher Weyant: Okay.
There you go.
Daryl Cagle: gentlemen, it was very nice to have you.
Michael de Adder: What's the next one about cooking?
Daryl Cagle: I think I'm going to do a bunch of Trumps in a row, so
gentlemen, remember to like and subscribe to the Caglecast wherever
you're watching it and join our mailing list at Cagle.com/subscribe.
You will never miss out on a new Caglecast and you will also get to
see the five most popular cartoons in America every day in your newsletter.
It's very exciting.
And, , it was very nice having you.
Christopher Weyant: Thanks for having me on.
Michael de Adder: Having us, it was a lot of fun.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
That's the end.
Good talking to you.
Bye.