Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where
we're all about political cartoons.
And today, our guest is Mr.
Fish, also known as Dwayne Booth, and he's been drawing hard hitting
editorial cartoons for a long time.
decades.
You probably, can get to know Dwayne best through a documentary about him called Mr.
Fish Cartooning from the Deep End that's streaming now for free on Tubi and Tubi.
com.
And, you can also see it by paying three or four bucks to other streaming services.
It's great to have you here, Mr.
Fish.
Great to be here, Daryl.
I've been a fan of Mr.
Fish for a long time.
And, he is, out of the mainstream of, mainstream media editorial cartoonists,
because he often does things that are kind of obscene and, that's okay,
depending on what, publication you're in.
Here is, the Republican party giving birth to Trump.
Tell us about this.
Mr. Fish: Well, you just nailed it.
I wanted to do something, obviously, that connected the, buffoonery and the
grotesque nature of Trump being born out of a very traditional image, which is
the elephant of the Republican Party, and ask that question generally with
an image like this, what does this say about the tradition of the Republican
Party, and what is going to happen with this monstrosity once it is birthed and,
given a platform from which to broadcast whatever it's going to broadcast in
the name of the Republican Party.
Daryl Cagle: I should say that, you sent me about a hundred Trump
cartoons and I picked 40 and, I didn't put in the most obscene ones
and I took out the four letter words.
but you know, we have some that are pretty much on the edge of, you know, obscene.
And, here is Trump with his ugly butt.
And I suppose that just means that you're seeing through to the real
Trump, both with the Confederate battle flag and with his butt.
Mr. Fish: Right.
Yeah.
I mean, if you're trying to, illuminate somebody's identity, you don't
necessarily always need their face.
That's what's going on here.
Daryl Cagle: Now, I should emphasize again that I have, edited these and, uh,
I wonder if you would talk for a minute about, your audience, because this is
not the, regular newspaper audiences.
We, we wouldn't have gotten a newspaper to print either of these first two cartoons.
and, So you're, picking your audience by what you choose
to draw tell us about that.
Mr. Fish: I tend to draw stuff that I would like to see.
a, of course, I want to be provocative and, unique.
and I would even argue though, that stuff like this actually would.
Be publishable and exist inside something like the comics underground movement
from the 60s and 70s even the alternative press would run things like this back
then so That's the time period that has inspired me since I was a little kid
Daryl Cagle: Of-course we're living in a time when the alternative
press has pretty much died
Mr. Fish: Absolutely, even the mainstream.
I mean I would I would argue that that even the most mainstream or the
idea of trying to produce objective Reporting on things is gone.
Everything to me seems as if it's an opinion piece, and everything is
argued in favor of what political stance or political team you
want to associate yourself with.
That has very little to do with straight reporting to me, Or even commentary that
asks for conversation, because a lot of my stuff, I try to be provocative and
have that moment of, is this obscene?
Is this what is this?
that begs a conversation.
And I think in order to get to the bottom of understanding politics, and how each
of us grapples with our, responsibilities as citizens in a free democracy, you
need to have a conversation afterwards.
It's not really about just sloganeering and then reacting to
everybody's oversimplified notions about, playing politics like sports.
Daryl Cagle: Cartoonists all over the world like to draw Ku Klux Klan hoods.
In general, I would say.
Mainstream newspapers won't print anything with a Ku Klux Klan hood in it, no
matter what, even if it's an appropriate reference like to Charlottesville.
That's frustrating to cartoonists and, you know, there's a lot of things
that cartoonists naturally want to draw that just never get printed.
Now you're living in a different world because you're picking
your audience and you've got, a limited number of publications
that are willing to accept that.
Mr. Fish: Yeah, I don't do my stuff in search of an audience necessarily.
I, I try to serve my ideas about what I think is right or wrong about the world.
and I also try not to pull any punches.
if I'm very upset about something, I'm going to, I'm going to express it in the
most extreme way I can if I'm very upset.
Now that said, sometimes that's the way to do it.
You know, people can then say, yes, I am that angry and
I'm with you in your pain.
We can congregate around our own frustration and our own outrage.
That's what this looks like.
But there are other artful ways you can thread that needle.
here's another KKK sort of reference.
And I, and I do agree with you.
It is really interesting.
cartoonists really are always attempting to figure out the shorthand and to, to get
their ideas across as quickly as possible.
Right?
so you do want to use things that cue the reader, in a way to know
exactly what you're talking about.
And I do find the same frustration.
If they're saying that it's too bombastic, uh, I would say that it's
not quite as bombastic as the thing you're trying to illustrate, which is
Daryl Cagle: Our perspective on it is that, uh, you know, uh, an important
part of the editorial cartooning audience is that, all the students
in America in 8th grade and 11th grade have this AP history test.
And on the AP history test, they have editorial cartoons and the student
is supposed to write an essay.
What does this cartoon mean?
What is the cartoonist saying?
And, kids have lousy, visual metaphor vocabularies.
And, these are actually quite difficult for them.
you know, the number one email I get is, Dear Mr.
Cagle, explain the cartoon to me.
My paper's due tomorrow.
And probably the biggest, uh, Clients we have for our editorial cartoons are
the testing services that write the tests and by extension, the textbooks
for the teachers who teach to the test showing editorial cartoons.
so, we generally think of what we want to do.
As being safe for eighth graders and, I would say probably a fourth of your
cartoons are not safe for eighth graders.
Mr. Fish: I know I have to jump in there though, because I think you and
I've had this conversation before.
It's funny that you say that because if there's anybody who is going
to thrill to some of the stuff I create, it would be an eighth grader.
Because I think that that that classifying it as not being safe is a it sounds like
a parental decision to me I guarantee you you ask any eighth grader who is curious
about the world and also curious about politics I think that they would want to
see things that are You know quote unquote inappropriate In a mainstream sense,
And so one of the things too, that you bring up an interesting point about, you
know, reading the reading of cartooning, in contemporary times, I wonder how
much of that has to do with literacy when it comes to this kind of art form.
You know, because if you think about it, I think that most of the way,
anybody in contemporary society, adults included, the only experience
they have with, deciphering and experiencing imagery is through
advertising more than anything else.
And that's very short form and is asking for a reaction.
And typically, if it's advertising.
it's presenting you with a discomfort that is going to be
relievable through purchase.
All right.
So that kind of thing, when it comes to editorial cartooning, I think our
job as cartoonists are asking for, yes, immediate recognition for what
we're trying to critique, but also asking for a deeper conversation and
more contemplation and deliberation on Complicated political and cultural ideas.
Daryl Cagle: well tell me about this one.
Is this just a simple cartoon that Trump dances with racism in his Course of
things or is this a commentary on Melania?
Mr. Fish: It is not Melania.
It is just what you said before.
it is the normalization of this kind of prejudicial thinking that
had happened during his presidency.
In other words, it's still lingering.
It's still something that we're dealing with.
so turning that into that kind of hatred into something that
is a kind of elegance and grace.
framed around a political leader who is in the White House.
All of these things are supposed to be sort of, more stately.
Daryl Cagle: well, I like how the metaphor extends here because, he leads in the
dance and, a dance is something that you.
Look to practice and get right and, be graceful and, all of that
in his relationship with, these, foul people on the far right is,
pretty ugly as you show in her face.
I think this a lovely cartoon.
But again, it's very frustrating that we can't get these things published.
I put in a few of the cartoons from our other more traditional
mainstream cartoonists that are kind of saying the same thing.
this is, this is basically saying the same thing as your cartoon.
you know, his, his association and how he, is defined by that, but they
just don't get printed because they are having a Ku Klux Klan hat in them.
Mr. Fish: It is frustrating so the question is, who is making that decision?
I think that there is a difference between an editor making a decision
like that, is that in deference to an audience that might misinterpret this?
Or is this something that is, is actually going to be effective?
Because as you and I know, the profession continues to suffer.
We are a diminishing species, and I would argue that that's not
because the work that we do is antiquated and non, not effective.
I think it's because it is effective and it can start these conversations
and it can encapsulate, very dangerous situations and things that are going
on in society that might incite people to actually do something about it.
Daryl Cagle: I might argue that, as, print is in decline and newspapers are more and
more, timid as their audience is smaller and their income is smaller, that, the
idea of an old lady writing in to cancel her subscription has a lot more power.
Mr. Fish: I think also literacy when it comes to this art form.
because you can do stuff, imagery particularly, since like an
image like this, for example, this was, about January 6th.
uh has no words.
it's something that people From when I did publish it said that
it was really beautiful and I saw
Daryl Cagle: I I really should describe these things You know the typical
podcast listener, uh watches the video version, but then they put it on their
chest and fall asleep listening to it.
So this is your, Guernica cartoon of January 6th with,
lots of January 6th imagery.
And I should say that this is, uh, This is one of those things like Ku Klux Klan
hoods that all the cartoonists love to do.
They love to do, parodies of famous masterpieces and, Guernica in particular,
because Guernica is one of those things that's a metaphor for horror at its
most, cartoonists love to pick the, the strongest imagery that we can, or that we
can get away with, and, you are, renowned for being willing to pick stronger
imagery than others can get away with.
Mr. Fish: Right.
It's also important to recognize the Guernica, this, this, the
Picasso piece, by some scholars call it the greatest editorial
cartoonist that's ever been made.
You know, it's because it also looks like newsprint, it's communicating about
a very specific incident in history, so it has a lot of the, characteristics
of what a, a great, a, cartoon would have it's How how big is it?
It's like it's huge.
It's like 40 foot long, isn't it?
So maybe that's where the grandeur comes from for people you stand in
front of it and you you know If it tipped off the wall, it would crush you.
Daryl Cagle: well, this is really very nice.
And this is one that I did and this was just the republicans losing the
election and being so horrified and This was back when Obama was elected, I
think, and, we just gotta love Guernica.
Guernica really works for us.
here's one by, uh, cartoonist in, in Greece, Michael
Kountouris, and he's doing Gaza.
Of course, Guernica is about the Spanish Civil War, but, when you're drawing
something like the horror of war, that's really what Guernica was intended for.
So it's not really an exaggeration so much.
but I love Guernica.
This was, this was one that I thought was fun from, Angel Bolligan, cartoonist
for El Universal in Mexico city.
And he's doing a Guernica about the high price of insurance.
And, that's kind of funny.
You know, the more trivial the topic that you put the strongest metaphor
next to, just makes it kind of funny.
so, I enjoyed all of those.
And I enjoyed your Guernica.
Mr. Fish: Well, thank you.
Daryl Cagle: I thought this was a great cartoon.
You know, there were so many cartoons about the kids in cages.
And, this one I think, really captures the lack of concern and the
trivialization about the issue, in a way that I thought was kind of charming
at the same time trying to be shocking.
So, I really liked this cartoon.
Mr. Fish: Thanks.
Yeah, and part of it too was also characterizing how what, always
appeared to be his attitude towards, immigrants, just to call them animals.
and like you said, to frame it in a way that looks very, benign and childlike.
We all recognize this from, you know, the animal crackers
that we've, had growing up.
and to also have the idea that that is normalized and also, marketed to
a public that is, unable to see the tragedy of it is also important.
Daryl Cagle: And this is a great and charming cartoon, but you
know, there is something about you, kind of a bad boy persona.
I never know when you're going to be obscene that carries through
even to cartoons that are, there's nothing obscene about them, that
you still feel like he's edgy.
even when the cartoon is not doing a terrible edgy thing, because
this is, this is a cartoon that would have been beautiful if done
by any cartoonist, but not so edgy if done by a different cartoonist.
I think that's fun.
So, Captain America, Captain America about to, blow himself
up with a suicide vest.
Mr. Fish: Well, this, again, like, these are images like this,
it's, it's hard to talk about.
And, and I would like to bring this into the conversation, not
necessarily now, but your experience talking to cartoonists, asking.
What their images mean.
I always feel it.
I've seen some of your podcasts.
So there's always quite often that beat where it's just like, I draw this stuff
so I don't have to talk about it, which I always find really, really great.
but yeah, I can, it's, it's pretty obvious, you know,
somebody who arguably the most powerful person in the free world.
Okay.
That's what an American president is tasked with being called.
That's the identity of this person.
what does that mean?
Typically, quite often it has to do with the lethality for the president.
For other people outside of the United States, I would say, when the
domestic threat becomes something that the commander in chief,
is perpetrating, that's when it becomes really interesting to me.
So during Trump's presidency, many people were very concerned
with what was happening to the fabric of the democracy itself.
so the threat became, something that a, was being normalized by the office,
just because you're supposed to respect the commander in chief and you're
supposed to do your best to, assume that the, checks and balances inside of our
government are going to keep us safe.
When Trump was president, well, that started to become very, very, very shaky.
and it started to feel like somebody who has the hubris and arrogance of somebody
like Trump, he's willing to take down the country with himself to protect his ego.
and that, that's new.
I think that that's new when it comes to a president.
Daryl Cagle: So you have Trump as God anointing, himself as
man on the Sistine Chapel.
Mr. Fish: Yes.
and also I needed to have the hand gestures be juvenile and, Unbecoming
of somebody in such powerful position.
Daryl Cagle: So the fist bump is rather disrespectful to God who is also him
This is a funny cartoon
Mr. Fish: It's also a cartoon that I mean, I like doing things that Illustrate
a feeling more than an idea, you know, once you introduce a religious element
into a political element, there becomes a wrestling match that is kind of curious,
you know, because some people are going to wonder if it's a mockery of religion.
Some people are going to wonder if it's a mockery of the
Institution of the Presidency.
Obviously, it's a mockery of Trump, but it's going to be up to the reader
to grapple with SA little bit of a hot mess with an image like this
and figure out, uh, a what, why it's satisfying, why it's confounding, you
know, why you wanna stick with it for any length of time to figure it out.
Um, because I think to one of the points that you were making earlier about,
when I render a cartoon, sometimes you can feel the edginess in it.
Uh, you know, that rendered from a different cartoonist
might not necessarily be there.
I think some of that might have to do with the, with the craftsmanship.
I try to put into my cartoons, because there is a way to
draw this with a simple line.
And as a much more quote unquote, cartoony rendering, but if I'm going to
spend like 5, 6 hours on a cartoon, when you're looking at art, you recognize
that the artist has spent that much time.
So a part of the reader's brain is going to say, why did this person
think this was important enough to spend that much time working on it?
I'm going to actually try to decipher it a little.
More, I'm going to give it a little more time.
so that's one of the things that I consider depending on
what I'm trying to cartoon.
Am I going to make this something closer to visually what might
look like a piece of fine art?
because people tend to like craftsmanship, and they will tend to stand in
front of it a little longer than if it were a simple cartoon drawing.
so if I can get somebody to stand in front of my work a little longer.
It does what I was saying earlier.
It sort of begs.
the opportunity for a longer deliberation, and then perhaps a more substantive
conversation following the viewing.
Daryl Cagle: you can look at this one very simply, which is, oh, the ego on this guy.
Mr. Fish: Exactly.
Daryl Cagle: So this is fun.
Trump, with the Burger King crown and his giant fat belly.
I might argue that, his body hair should also be, gold and light yellow.
Mr. Fish: Right.
I don't know how much time I could spend working on something like that.
I mean, that would be really, that, that is funny, but then you've just added,
at least an hour and a half to my head.
Yeah.
Um, with something like this.
Looking at Trump, you always, would have the idea the grandeur and the authority
of this person is very self imposed.
Daryl Cagle: You have a caption on this that says, The king of the world trying
to decide if he wants fries with doomsday.
And, the, the caption, is necessary, because that changes the view of
the cartoon, but it's just a funny image, and I enjoyed this one.
So this is, Goya's, Saturn devouring his children and, Trump
is devouring Uncle Sam, as you see from the hat at the bottom.
And, this is lovely.
This is also one of those images like Guernica all the cartoonists love to draw.
we all know this Goya painting and it's an extreme metaphor.
Mr. Fish: It is.
I, again, you're right.
I think when it comes to, the deepening of even satire, I mean, we can talk about
cartoons using, familiar images to riff off of, but the history of even satire
itself, it demands that your reader have some understanding of the past,
and other forms of, communication that communicated horrific images, connected to
narratives that are very, very, very dark.
So if you can bring a modern iteration of something that has the depth and the
terror of something like this Goya piece, so much of the work has already been done.
and then once again, you're asking the reader, to consider Trump.
As being as monstrous and producing equal horror to what Saturn
devouring his son would look like.
Daryl Cagle: He did eat all of his children though.
Mr. Fish: Yes, but I think that that might be his son.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
I have talked to a couple of other cartoonists who did
Saturn eating his son cartoons.
And, They both had problems with their editors who were
not familiar with the painting.
And when they're getting, this image without knowing that it's a painting
parody, it is difficult for them to accept why you've chosen this image.
I don't recall if they got the cartoon killed or printed, but it was
difficult for them to communicate that.
And, when you're pitching to 8th graders, Things like this are like
a kind of need explanation and I'm not quite sure how you do it.
Mr. Fish: Yeah, you're right.
But at the same time, I think an eighth grader would say again, this
goes back to me trying to, you know, render with sufficient craft just to
make it even without that reference.
if you can get as close to Goya as possible, because you know, an eighth
grader would see the Goya if they hadn't seen it before and be intrigued.
so if this is their first experience with something as ugly
and as dark, I'm fine with that.
I don't, I don't necessarily need, the Goya reference to be in here.
It adds to it for sure.
But if they recognize the Trump, they recognize the Goya.
is devouring, as you said, Uncle Sam, you see the hat there.
So I think the commentary is already there.
Yes, it might be deepened by the reference point, but I don't know if
that's always going to be necessary.
And this is an example of that in my mind.
Daryl Cagle: here is another Saturn cartoon by John Darkow and, look at what
a difference the way you draw the image.
goes towards, the, the horror and also what a difference it makes coming from
you, where you feel like you're always on the edge of being obscene to something
like this, where there's not really any threat of obscenity from John Darkow.
And, I think that's an interesting contrast to a very common metaphor,
Mr. Fish: This is funny though.
Tastes like chicken.
Daryl Cagle: Now this one's by, Hajo from Holland.
A lot of these, Saturn eating his children are drawings of Putin.
I've done a couple of them.
I did, Saturn devouring Cyprus and Saturn devouring Iceland, when they
both had their banking crises and it looks like the bankers are going
to devour these whole countries.
which I thought was kind of fun.
That's really a more trivial.
concept to put into this.
extreme metaphor and, I think the most extreme metaphors are
kind of funnier when they're on concepts that are not as extreme.
Mr. Fish: Yeah.
No, that's, that's certainly true.
One question I would have for you is in your experience in sort of gathering these
cartoons that have this reference, do you find, international cartoonists tend
to rely on these kinds of connections more than American cartoonists?
Daryl Cagle: I think Maybe European cartoonists or Latin American
cartoonists may have an audience that knows a little bit more about art,
Mr. Fish: right.
Daryl Cagle: You think?
Mr. Fish: Yeah, I think so.
I think that also that, many more cartoonists outside of the United
States rely on wordless cartoons.
I think yes.
Yeah, and I think that's a great tradition to draw on, you don't
have to speak the language.
You can even be illiterate and you can still understand what's going on.
Daryl Cagle: when you consider that cartoons are intended to be on a
printed page surrounded by text?
I think they have much more impact than if they're trying to
compete with the text around them.
. So here you have the Rosie the Riveter.
We can do it.
another metaphor that the cartoonists all use.
Here's, here's one from RJ Mattson.
But again, yours is harsh and there's a sense of, this is the
guy who might be obscene, which you don't get on a standard editorial
cartoon, even with the same image.
Mr. Fish: Right.
Daryl Cagle: I think that's fun.
that's both, your curse and your asset.
Mr. Fish: Well, thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, just to go back to that, just really quickly, those
last two, that we can do it.
one of the things that might make me a little bit different than many of
my colleagues in this industry is that I always have in the back of my mind.
the danger that mirth can cripple rage.
So I always have to find that it's a balancing act.
I don't want it to be funnier than angry.
Because when it comes to the stuff that I'm trying to
criticize, I'm actually angry.
And I think that a way to get people politically involved with something
that is perhaps dangerous to the society, I think they need to leave
the image, a little uneasy because if you have the relief of just,
you know, That was a good joke.
that it's satisfying your physiology is being told everything's going to be okay.
And sometimes with certain things, I don't think that that is the
message I want to put forth.
because, as I said, mirth can cripple rage.
And I think that rage, controlled and, you know, Level towards organizing and
getting involved, you know, not going and tearing things down is a great
motivating force to actually participating in the democracy and also attempting to
alleviate some of its pain and fix it.
Daryl Cagle: Well, there's the argument that you're trying to persuade with
a cartoon rather than just, preach to the choir and, share your anger
with people that are also angry.
And of course, those are the people that appreciate our cartoons the
most, but mirth is also, helpful in persuading and getting through to
someone with a point that, they might not otherwise be willing to accept.
Mr. Fish: It is.
It's a definite balancing act, I think.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Don Quixote.
This is another favorite metaphor of editorial cartoonists.
So, You think that Liberty is, the windmill that doesn't exist as a monster?
Mr. Fish: I think that Trump here is seeing, Liberty as a dragon,
that is deserving of his lands, not recognizing the fact that A is not
a dragon, and that it has agency and usefulness as a windmill might.
In, a different location.
Okay.
Daryl Cagle: Here's one of my, uh, Don Quixote cartoons.
I did Trump with Pence and, their windmills are, all of the
election nonsense that, doesn't really exist that he was.
eager to fight again.
Mr. Fish: and this is
Picasso, right?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
and I think, I think Don Quixote is one of those, things that's
extra favorite of the Europeans.
we see so many Don Quixote cartoons.
here you have a Kool Aid cartoon.
Kool Aid is another favorite metaphor.
You've got a, silly cartoon that maintains your edginess.
of course, Kool Aid is the death of us all.
And,
Mr. Fish: I like that.
Thank you.
I wonder if the Kool Aid, company is just thrilled by the constant
use of their product as a reference.
That's
Daryl Cagle: gotta be frustrating for them.
I threw in a couple other Kool Aid cartoons.
they usually don't have much, nuance.
I thought this was funny.
Kool Aid is a wonderful metaphor, and, I don't think the Kool Aid company
deserves it, so that's kind of sad.
All I Want for Christmas is a Different Santa.
This is very nice.
Mr. Fish: Yes, and I like his applause there, and getting the eagle in there
as what would usually be a turkey or some roast goose or something.
Daryl Cagle: There's a theme of Trump killing America in a lot of your cartoons.
Mr. Fish: Right.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have the Trump Cliff notes, dropping their poop.
Another thing that we can't get editors to accept is poop in cartoons.
and they don't like bodily fluids.
very frustrating because those are, those are things car All cartoonists really
want to draw poop and bodily fluids.
Mr. Fish: Well, it's funny.
It's just to, to get back to that thought.
You know, uh, Mort Gerberg, I'm sure.
so Mort and I have had many conversations.
He was great friends with Paul Krasner, who was the editor
of, uh, The Realist magazine.
and, Mort and a number of cartoonists working at the time were so thankful
for the appearance of The Realist magazine because it allowed them to
do poop cartoons and much more work.
So he would have his stuff, you know, there'd be stuff in the New Yorker and
other, really, mainstream magazines that had a great deal of stature and then he
would just be, he and colleagues would just be like, now the stuff we really want
to do, it's going to go into The Realist.
So there used to be venues where you could actually do both of those things.
Not so much anymore.
Daryl Cagle: one thing that seems to be a common experience is when an editorial
cartoonist gets laid off or fired from his newspaper job but they still like
to keep drawing cartoons whether they have a job or not you know as these
cartoonists all lose their jobs We don't lose that many cartoonists because
they love what they do and they just keep doing it as freelancers but the
Mr. Fish: You're aware of the cartoon when they, uh, the, um, The book
of cartoons that were, uh, supposed to be in the New Yorker, but were
rejected from the New Yorker.
Sure.
Have you seen it?
So those, I always, my argument
Daryl Cagle: Those are better cartoons.
You gotta wonder why the New Yorker is picking all the worst cartoons.
They're just demonstrating that, that, uh I know.
Matt Diffee edited that book and it's just did a wonderful job.
But what I was saying before is that, as soon as the cartoonist gets laid
off, they, they draw somebody peeing on something it's just the classic cartoon.
We all want to draw somebody peeing on something else.
And, they're never allowed to do it until the day after they're
fired and they're drawing.
They've got to get all their pee out.
so talk to us about this one.
Trump just about to kiss the political baby of a very racist doll.
Mr. Fish: Right.
He's basically, with something like this, I wanted to, again, acknowledge
who he is trying to inspire.
What is his base made up of?
who are his biggest fans?
and bringing in that horribly racist trope from the past, and having him
completely, he's either aware and thinks it's beautiful or he's completely
unaware and doesn't know what he's doing.
Both, criticisms of him, I'm totally fine with.
Daryl Cagle: You're fine with him being unaware?
Mr. Fish: I'm fine.
No, I'm fine with people recognizing the fact that he is either unaware
or his villainy is something he's 100 percent aware of.
Either way, he's dangerous.
Daryl Cagle: Yes, but it would never, occur to me that he was unaware.
He seems, to know his, audience really very well.
Mr. Fish: I don't know.
I mean, that again, I think that's open to debate.
I think that I think that while you may say that he knows his audience really
well, I think that his audience might know him better or equally as well.
I don't think Trump knows how to get out of his own head.
I like, that argument where it's just like, well, he's
very good at what he does.
He's a master showman who does this and that.
I, never have believed that.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I wouldn't assume any hypocrisy in that.
We hear all this stuff about Republicans talking about, stuff
to the public, but then in private they say entirely different things.
And my feeling is I'm going to believe Whatever they say in
public, that's really who they are.
Whether they say something else in private, who cares?
That's what you are in public is what you are.
and so I believe Trump.
Mr. Fish: Oh, I believe him a hundred percent.
but at the same time, I mean, we also should extend that to
the other side of the aisle.
I think that when it comes to a politician, I think that
there's equal, justification in naming that for both sides.
You just, for example, I remember when Obama was saying that he was, uh, with
the question of gay marriage, for example.
if you remember the very beginning of that debate, he was saying,
you know, I think that it's a choice between a man and a woman.
And he, like any other politician, had his finger in the wind.
And when the society decided to move.
without the permission of bureaucrats and insist on that right.
Then he had to make the public statement after careful consideration.
I've changed my mind basically into this thing.
I knew when he said that he was against it.
You could see in his eyes that he was not being genuine.
He was not against it.
He understands that that civil union has, credibility and should exist.
but he had to play the role of a politician.
Remember a lot of what we hear from politicians is theater.
but to your point, I think that when it comes to Donald Trump, it's a
little bit different because he white knuckles his buffoonery in a way that
other politicians, I don't think have.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you bring up an interesting topic because, I, think
looking at your work that you were just as tough on Obama as you are on Trump,
but clearly you're on the left and you certainly must not have disliked Obama
as much as you must dislike Trump.
but, when you reach for the strongest metaphors all the time, I think looking at
your work, Your work is just as strongly opposed to Obama as it is to Trump.
and, one thing I noticed among the more mainstream cartoonists is
that the conservative cartoonists don't draw Trump and, the liberal
cartoonists didn't draw Obama.
cartooning is a negative art and You really have nothing but
bad things to say about people.
but you jumped whole hog into saying all The worst metaphors you could about Obama.
So can you speak to that a little bit?
Mr. Fish: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And, because I'm attacking the chair of the presidency.
I don't care who's in that chair and I think that the, placating that happens
in that chair and the dishonesty that happens in that chair, in many ways,
there's an argument to be made, I think, or at least a conversation that
can be made, that somebody like Obama might actually be a little bit more
dangerous than somebody like Trump, in the sense that, Obama was, dashing,
eloquent, seemed just very likable.
anybody who would look at him, I would say, you know, with our political
leanings would say that's somebody I would actually like to hang out with.
but our responsibility is cartoonists and and and critics has to look beyond that.
Because if there's somebody who is eloquent and likable.
Who is doing things like, perpetuating a drone program that is really, really
dangerous, adhering to certainties when it comes to, how we, grapple with
secret surveillance, secret renditions, all of these things that the Obama
administration, perpetuated, You don't want to do it because you like him.
I found that to be one of the hardest things that I need to do
because a lot of people were just like, why are you doing that?
Why are you doing that?
also the fact that he was the first African American president that we had.
You know, that's also something to consider because one of the cartoons that
kept coming out when he was elected the first time and then when he was elected
the second time had some version of Martin Luther King sitting on a cloud looking
down at the swearing in of Obama and having tears of joy run down his face.
That to me was, a racist take from my perspective listen, it's not
lost on me the insignificance of having the first black president.
That aside, when it comes to the things that Martin Luther King criticized
the idea that You would have Martin Luther King shedding tears of joy
looking at obama particularly when he was elected for his second term and
not You Look like you'd be capable of criticizing Obama to me as a disservice
to both Martin Luther King and to our understanding of who Obama was.
You can't just make the equation that they are both black men and that they
are therefore going to be friends.
And that's my job as somebody who's cartooning and trying to perpetuate
a meaningful conversation about this says that there is a difference,
you know, there is a difference.
Daryl Cagle: I used to work as a toy inventor and, in the toy industry,
you never see volume controls on any electronic toys because kids
will turn the volume up all the way.
And there's no other volume setting except turn it up all the way.
And in a way I think you kind of approached Editorial cartooning,
like a kid approaches a toy.
Uh, you turn the volume up all the way on everything.
Even when there's someone you like more than someone else, your
volume is turned up all the way.
So, um, Yeah.
That's, maybe that's more a matter of who you are than who Obama is.
here you've got Che Guevara as Donald Trump, and that's fun, and
cartoonists love to draw Che Guevara.
Here you've got Trump jumping the shark, I think that's a good point,
because no matter how crazy he was in the presidency, it seemed like
every day was getting crazier.
Mr. Fish: Yeah, so it's every day he jumped the shark.
It was, it drove me crazy and I'm just like, how's nobody paying attention
to the fact that this is Fonzie jumping over the shark tank every day?
It's neither entertaining or is it worthwhile to watch?
Daryl Cagle: Well, this is a very nice epic, uh, Biden
crossing the Delaware cartoon.
I think this is a lot of fun and you've got a lot of fun things going on.
Mr. Fish: Right.
This I actually did for a German, news agency that right,
before Biden's inauguration, they did a short documentary about.
The election.
and so they hired me to do a illustration that they could show in their documentary.
So in the middle of working on it, January 6th happened.
So I said, okay, well, I can add the sign that has the arrow to where to find
the Capitol, and I can actually add the cannonball headed towards the Capitol.
So this was actually a work in progress that I had to make an alteration to
right in the middle of rendering it.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have Trump on the ground, just having
gotten kicked in the groin.
It says, Jesus coming back, but only for a minute and then leaving again.
That's funny.
Mr. Fish: Yeah, that, that was a lot of fun to do.
Daryl Cagle: A what would Jesus do cartoon?
I enjoyed this cartoon.
I think I'm gonna make this into the cover image for this podcast.
Mr. Fish: wonderful.
So this is so funny.
Daryl Cagle: Is he surrendering
? Mr. Fish: Yes.
This was the cartoon when everything, when we remember, we were waiting and
waiting and waiting after the election, just like, how is this gonna play out?
Everybody was waiting to see if he was gonna get a second term or if
Biden was gonna become president.
And I remember.
Waiting and then hearing that, Biden had won.
And I was on the porch with friends, went over and a friend of mine opened
an extremely expensive bottle of scotch that he'd been waiting to open.
And we were standing on the porch, toasting each other.
Drinking back our scotch and then this popped into my
head and I said, I got to go.
I've got a six hour drawing that I've got to,
Daryl Cagle: well,
that's funny.
So here you have naked Trump sitting on the globe taking a selfie.
And he's very happy with himself.
Mr. Fish: Yeah, the world is not probably very happy with this, this scenario.
Daryl Cagle: The point of this is his expression, that
he's very happy with himself.
Mr. Fish: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: The cartoonists all love to do, uh, flipping the
bird, giving the finger cartoons.
And, again, the editors don't like that.
Uh, so it's another source of frustration, like not being able
to draw blood or bodily fluids.
Um, but, uh, you don't have that, uh, frustration since you, you
don't worry about such things.
And so, uh, There's an expression of your freedom.
Mr. Fish: Exactly.
I also wanted to have him look sufficiently like Mussolini, you know.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, very good.
I think this is our last one.
You have, Trump as the chart of all of the cuts of meat on a hog.
And, drawing Trump as a pig is a very standard thing among cartoonists.
But what made me laugh about this is that you have the anus where his mouth is.
And that just, struck me as that's where the real joke in this is, Exactly.
Mr. Fish: Yeah.
Again, like one of the, the, the strengths of, uh, of cartooning in my
mind and the people that I gravitate towards, it's really about trying
to figure out how to tell a blatant truth with really little else.
I mean there, there, there are ways to fancify truth, but I think the
strength of editorial cartooning, and satire in general comes from
the freedom and the willingness to actually just try to be as blatantly
truth telling and blunt as possible.
Daryl Cagle: I think we're at the end of our time.
So what are all the last things you wanna say?
Mr. Fish: I would like to say that, uh, if you want to find where you can see these
cartoons, go to Clowncrack.Com, because, yes, there is lots of inappropriateness.
Share it with your, eighth graders that you know, and,
and let's go save the world.
Daryl Cagle: that is the end of our, podcast for today.
please remember to like and subscribe wherever you're
watching this and visit Mr.
Fish at Clowncrack.Com and thank you very much.
Mr.
Fish.
You are a gentleman and You're always welcome to join our syndicate with
three fourths of your cartoons if you ever choose to I I am a fan.
Mr. Fish: Yes long time.
We've known each other for a long time.
So thanks Daryl Thanks for having me on
Daryl Cagle: Very good.
Thanks a lot, Dwayne.
And goodbye, everybody.