Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where
we're all about political cartoons.
And today our topic is the border crisis.
We'll look at Biden, Trump, desperate refugees, children
in cages, and so much more.
It's a festival of human cartoon misery.
And we have four favorite editorial cartoons joining us today.
Rob Rogers has won a ton of awards.
Hey, Rob.
Rob Rogers: Good to see everybody.
Rick McKee: Good to see you, Rob.
Good to see you, Rob.
Adam Zyglis: Hey, Rob.
Daryl Cagle: Rob has won a ton of awards and has worked for the
Pittsburgh Post Gazette for decades before he was fired for criticizing
President Trump by those bastards.
And Rob is a shining star in our profession and I'm a big fan.
Welcome, Rob.
Rob Rogers: Thank you, Daryl.
Appreciate it.
Rick McKee: Daryl, can you say bastards?
Daryl Cagle: I'm gonna say bastards.
Rick McKee: Okay.
. Daryl Cagle: I think this cartoon is great.
Wonderful cartoon.
Yeah, that's a great
Rob Rogers: cartoon.
Thanks.
Yeah.
I, this was one of the cartoons that was done during my most tumultuous
week at the paper, because this was the week where they were about
to kill six in a row after killing like 13 earlier in the, in the year.
And so this was a day when I was trying to communicate with my
publisher and my editor and try to find out why they were, boxing me out.
They weren't speaking to me or anything.
So, I was writing this long email to them to sort of say, Hey, let's, let's get
together and talk and work things out.
and then it was like two o'clock in the afternoon.
And I realized, Oh my God, I haven't drawn my cartoon today.
And so I did this really fast.
But it ended up being, probably the most widely, syndicated cartoon that I, that I
did that week, it got a lot of play, so.
Daryl Cagle: Well, having them kill it and having it be widely
syndicated was probably an embarrassment they didn't like.
Rob Rogers: Yeah, that's right.
Rick McKee: That's a, that's a great cartoon.
I like the fact that you know, you don't even have to Say who Trump is just by
your silhouette, you're able to tell who that is, you know, he's got the long
tie and the hair and the puckered mouth
Rob Rogers: I'm not the first cartoonist to use the, sort of immigrant crossing
sign, uh, California sign, but I know this was Trump's policy of
separating children at the border.
It had never been done before.
Yeah.
and I'm sure many of you were as outraged as I was about the whole policy and it
just felt like an, an easy way of, you know, showing that, you know, that, that
sort of irony of, of the caution sign.
Daryl Cagle: moving on to Gary McCoy, Gary McCoy has won a ton of awards
including two silver Reubens from the National Cartoonist Society for
magazine and greeting card cartoons.
He's also a prolific magazine cartoonist.
He draws two syndicated newspaper comic strips, the duplex and the flying
McCoys, which is a crazy amount of work and it's great to have you back Gary.
Thanks
Gary McCoy: Daryl and good to see you guys.
Rick McKee: Gary.
Adam Zyglis: Good to see you.
Daryl Cagle: Gary is our most
Rick McKee: That's hilarious, Gary, with him coming through his ear like that
and holding it in.
Gary McCoy: Oh, thanks.
Daryl Cagle: Next we have Rick McKee, who was the cartoonist for decades
for the Augusta Chronicle in Georgia.
Rick draws the comic Pluggers, and we've syndicated Rick for 20 years, and Rick
is one of our podcast favorite guests.
Welcome back, Rick.
Gary McCoy: I love that, Rick.
Rick McKee: I appreciate
it.
Yeah, I did
this, uh, probably back around the time Biden got elected and
enacted his, unaccompanied children Policies that just encouraged all
these kids to flood the border
Rob Rogers: Oh, and it's also great because he likes ice cream.
Did you see him the other day?
Rick McKee: Yeah, yeah
Rob Rogers: licking the ice cream while talking about israeli policy
Daryl Cagle: Okay, this is one of my cartoons, uh kids looking over the
wall and Looks very tasty over there.
Here's Adam Ziglis.
Adam draws for the Buffalo News in New York.
Adam has won a Pulitzer Prize and a ton of other prizes.
Welcome back, Adam.
Adam Zyglis: It's great to be here.
It's good to see everybody.
Gary McCoy: Hey.
That's great, too.
Rick McKee: Yeah, that's a great, that's a
great image.
Adam Zyglis: I like when I can get away with having absolutely no words in a
cartoon, which is rare, these days, and with this image, like Rob was pointing
out, with the policy that Trump had separating children at the border, I
feel like I had to go for something that had like an emotional appeal
because You know, as a father of little kids, capturing those faces, and tying
it in with our symbol of immigration was, was like kind of the easiest
way I could get the message across.
Daryl Cagle: This is great.
And your caricature of her face is
funny.
Rob Rogers: Yeah, it's a nice drawing.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, This is Rivers, uh, has the Statue of Liberty with give me your
tired, your poor, your huddled masses.
Oy vey.
I'm just, impressed when other people draw crazy crowd scenes.
Rick McKee: Yeah, that's very clever.
I hate drawing crowds.
I try to avoid it whenever possible, but, um, that's great.
Daryl Cagle: You know, I, I get emails from people suggesting cartoon ideas and
invariably it involves a crowd scene.
You know, there's this one army coming in from the right, another
army coming in from the left, the sky is filled with helicopters.
and then there's these politicians in there.
There's this one, this one, this one, this one.
everybody seems to have an idea like that with no, no sense of
how much work they're suggesting.
Rick McKee: That's good.
Daryl Cagle: This, I'm doing some Statue of Liberty cartoons here.
This one is from Christo Komarnitsky in Bulgaria.
And, uh, what's fun about this is that's Trump's hair in the torch.
And it, and it takes a minute to kind of realize that.
and I think that's wonderful.
Adam Zyglis: What's nice is it also has like, it looks
like the torch is just limp.
It's, you know, it's, it's got that double kind of entendre to it, anytime
you can have that juxtaposition of two images, like without saying,
writing a word, I think is a, is a win from a cartoon standpoint.
Daryl Cagle: Very European.
Yeah.
Here's one of yours, Adam.
Make America freight again and send her back to France.
tons of, uh, Statue of Liberty on this.
And I know editorial cartoonists catch a lot of grief for drawing
so much Statue of Liberty, but
Adam Zyglis: Look at that lazy crowd though.
That's a lazy crowd.
This is why I don't choose concept of crowds because of my deadline.
I mean, if we had double the time to execute, I would sit there and turn
the music on and draw the crowd.
But
Daryl Cagle: you wouldn't do it just like this and then take a nap for an hour.
Here's another one of yours, Adam.
you've got the Trump administration saying, it should say, give me
your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet.
Adam Zyglis: Could have had the foot even bigger.
Rick McKee: Did you, did you say that's an actual quote?
It is, yeah.
I don't ever put quotes in a cartoon unless it's an actual quote from someone
in an administration or a public figure.
Daryl Cagle: That's a rule you have?
Because one of the great, joys of being an editorial cartoonist
is being able to put words into anybody's mouth that you choose.
Adam Zyglis: True.
and, um, and usually I'm doing that every day, but when, when
I can't use actual spoken words
Rick McKee: Yeah, it's more effective.
Adam Zyglis: It's, yeah, it stings a little bit more.
Rick McKee: Yeah, I agree.
I just didn't know that's a thing.
Daryl Cagle: A little asterisk in there that says actual quote.
Adam Zyglis: I thought about that.
It's not a bad way to make sure that people don't pass
that detail over.
Daryl Cagle: So Gary, this one made me laugh.
You've got Biden and the kids under their, uh, shiny metal blankets and
Biden says, how long do they have to cook before they're ready to vote?
That's hilarious.
Thanks.
Gary McCoy: That is hilarious.
It looked like, you know, well, those Mylar aluminum things look like big.
baked potatoes, so
Rob Rogers: Do you guys remember those blankets when we were in scouts?
We used to get them and then they were supposedly these like space blankets
that really work, but I guess they
Gary McCoy: do.
I don't know They see yeah, they still sell them.
I think for preppers or whatever online, right?
Daryl Cagle: Here's one from our anonymous cartoonist Rivers with Joe Biden, greeting
people, breaking through the wall, saying, welcome to America, illegal immigrants.
Remember to vote Democrat and remember we don't believe in voter ID.
So no worries.
he never said that.
Is that Duo Shade?
Adam Zyglis: the crosshatching?
Yeah.
Think
Gary McCoy: I feel like,
Adam Zyglis: yeah.
Remember Duo Shade?
Yeah.
My first like two years drawing.
I had some and then it like went out of stock.
I think two people bought the rest of
Daryl Cagle: it.
, Gary McCoy: I, I just found a bottle of the activating fluid
in my studio the other day.
Rick McKee: That stuff stinks.
Um, Well, I mean, you, you can get the same effect on Pho in Photoshop, right?
Uh, so I don't know.
He may be doing it
Daryl Cagle: that way.
Yeah, quite a few cartoonists do it in Photoshop.
My son does that on his comic books, I found a couple of bottles of
solution in my garage the other day, and they had completely evaporated.
They were nothing but dust at the bottom.
Rick McKee: Crystallized, yeah.
That's nasty stuff.
Probably all going to get cancer from that.
Gary McCoy: Meth labs will do that to your fluid when you're storing it long term.
Rick McKee: That's a beautiful illustration.
He's a great illustrator.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
And, here you got Dick Wright and, the front door to the White House and the
butler says, the president asks you all to stop your howling as it is nap time.
And the dogs are all outside howling border, border, border, which obviously
Biden doesn't hear because he's asleep.
Rick McKee: That's great.
Adam Zyglis: classic feel, classic style.
Dick crosshatching are real nice.
Daryl Cagle: I have noticed how both editors and readers like
any cartoon that has a dog in it.
Gary McCoy: What about a cat?
Note to
Daryl Cagle: self.
Yeah, they like, they like cats.
Rick, this is yours.
You've got, Biden with the come in.
But no, he's fixed it to don't come in.
We're not open and that doesn't look too effective.
Rick McKee: Yeah, I believe I do that.
Uh, there was like a time that it seems to have passed when, Biden and Kamala
Harris were trying to go out there and.
Say that they were actually not encouraging, illegal immigration.
So I think that was probably in response to that.
Rob Rogers: Did he borrow Trump's Sharpie there?
Is that what that is?
Rick McKee: Uh, I'm going to say yes.
i
Daryl Cagle: should say that the reason I read and describe all of
these is that podcast also goes out to the audio platforms where
people aren't looking at images.
And actually the majority of people that Watch video podcasts.
They turned it on video and then they lay it down and they fall
asleep without looking at it
Gary McCoy: They're missing Rick's Southwest landscapes, which I love.
Yeah.
Rick McKee: Oh, thanks.
Daryl Cagle: So here we've got John Darkow and Biden at the open border
with a speed bump and he says I've decided to finish the southern border
Well, he's finished it with a speed bump because it's very easy to get across
Rick McKee: think this is one of those, issues that a lot of people
across the political spectrum agree on, which is we've got a problem here.
I mean, Darkow is no conservative.
Daryl Cagle: Well, as we get a little farther in, I think the difference
between liberals and conservatives is that you see cartoons that are,
sympathetic to the plight of the migrants from the liberals and you
never see that from the conservatives
I can I can give you that reason when you're ready for it.
Daryl.
All right.
Give us the reason
Gary McCoy: it's
not that
we're not Compassionate or empathetic to these people but we have laws we're a
nation of laws and Just because someone wants a better life That's not an excuse
to get to violate our federal laws
and come across our southern border.
And probably 80 percent of those people would love to walk across
our border and get the same benefits and perks and everything else that
the people coming across from South America and Central America do.
Every day I see people just walking across, then committing crimes,
murders, obviously, and flipping Americans off after they're released
from custody, and it just burns me up because all the other people around
the world don't get to do that.
Trump separating kids from their families.
is not accurate necessarily because so many of those kids are
being brought across by coyotes.
So many of these kids are being sex trafficked and abused and
young girls are being raped.
In fact, their parents are sending their daughters up from South American countries
with birth control pills just so they don't get pregnant by the drug cartel
members who are raping them along the way.
This is a terrible tragedy.
Daryl Cagle: Gary, when you look at all those thousands or millions of people
crossing the border, and the vast majority of them are just people seeking a better
future, and they're leaving a desperate situation, and they're struggling, and
they're being abused and dying on the way.
doesn't your compassion for those people as people motivate you to
draw a single cartoon about that?
Gary McCoy: Well, I've got,
my, good friends and liberal counterparts doing that.
my point is to represent the voice of Conservative people feel that
our laws should be respected.
Daryl Cagle: Well, your role is to draw whatever is most compelling to
you about your feelings at the moment.
And it's just interesting to me that those feelings at the moment never
rise to the level of your drawing a single cartoon that motivates
all these other cartoonists.
Rick McKee: If I can interrupt here.
I would just say, and since you got my cartoon on the screen, I think pointing
out the fact that the open borders policies in this particular cartoon was
about 2019 when three people died in the Rio Grande River because they were lured
here, I think because of liberal policies, I think that is compassion to say, Hey,
wait a minute, you know, you're, you're causing these people harm and suffering.
So there's, it's sort of, there's sort of two sides to the coin.
I mean, you can.
Gary McCoy: That's a great point that Rick's making, because why
not represent the view that illegal immigration is killing people?
What about the fentanyl deaths?
It's causing in our country.
It doesn't do any good just to say, yeah, I have a soft heart
and I feel for these people.
I feel for them so much that I don't want them subjected to any more of
these deaths, rapes, drownings, kids who are separated at the border.
We don't know if the people they're being separated from
or even their family members.
In fact, we know that many of them are not, that they're being handed
off through sex trafficking once they're getting into this country.
The drug cartels are making billions of dollars off of this.
I guess it's what separates my views, again.
Adam Zyglis: From what Gary's saying, it sounds like he's acknowledging
a lot of that human suffering.
It just, you don't see it in his work.
I think there is a lot of common ground.
It's just, everything is so politicized these days that, for instance,
the separation of children at the border, conservative cartoonists or
commentators don't want to criticize their conservative leaders, so they
won't point that out, even though they may feel this is terrible for kids.
it should just be a human issue.
It shouldn't be conservative or liberal it should be just like this is a human.
There's humans are suffering.
We should be able to point it out Regardless of the party that's causing it.
Daryl Cagle: So here's a good example of this from Rob.
You've got the astronaut on the moon.
1969, one small step for man.
And then in 2019, you've got the ice guy with the kids in a cage.
And there's one giant leap backwards for mankind.
Rick McKee: But correct me if I'm wrong, those cages were left over from the
Obama administration, weren't they?
Well,
Rob Rogers: they were not used for children, no.
There were certain, cages that were, set up as barriers, but
they weren't used for children.
This is different.
but in the case of this cartoon, I mean, this was the 50th anniversary
of the, the moon landing.
And it just seemed like an appropriate time because this was happening at the
same time to kind of look at, how far we've come and how far we haven't come, in
terms of, living as humans on the planet.
But I think that I would take umbrage with, with Gary is that I don't think
that the statistics are inflated.
I think, that people were being, actively separated from
their children at the border.
Gary McCoy: agree with some of that, Rob.
I don't think the numbers are actually inflated.
When you, if you have one child who's being brought in with a sex
trafficker, how do you differentiate the ones who are with, parents, you
know, I mean, these kids are being brought over with a phone number and
call this person is the whole system.
Look, we're all ideological.
I mean, that's what, you know, is great.
I mean, I'm often curious as to find out.
what made, you know, you Rob and you Adam adopt your ideology?
That's a whole different discussion because I'm actually curious
about it because I know what formed me to be conservative.
I as a conservative, believe that the laws should be upheld and respected and
that just because someone's coming from a bad situation, again, Philippines,
India, Africa, all these other countries, people don't just have the opportunity
to just walk across our Southern border.
But it's the damage it's doing to this country.
The fentanyl deaths, the murders.
And it's against the law.
It's illegal.
You see these people just walk across, and I'm thinking every
time I see that, we're a country.
And, and everything being equal is what bothers me, just because you're
coming from a country that has a land pass to get here doesn't make it right.
It doesn't make it right.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I think that's the clearest difference is when you
see this, you see it as unequal under the law, unequal enforcement of the
law, unfair for them to break the law, and others see it as what a
human tragedy on a personal level.
Gary McCoy: So, okay.
Rob Rogers: And don't get me wrong.
I think, I think.
I think that immigration is a serious problem and, and the
sheer numbers are unsustainable.
And I think we need to reform our immigration policy.
And that's first and foremost.
And I blame Obama for not doing it when he had the Democrats in Congress on
his side, and I blame Biden for wasting his first two years, not addressing it.
I think there are definitely plenty of people to blame,
but it's about our policy.
And it shouldn't be about our humanity.
Our, humanity should be the same and we should treat people with respect the
same way and that may be the difference is liberals think of government as
something that should be used to help those that are less fortunate.
And in this case, these are very less fortunate people.
Adam Zyglis: I do think that there has been a shift.
That a lot of liberals, and Democrats view it much more as a problem these
days than they used to, and I think It's just it's an effect of of time and
seeing what's going on at the border.
And
Rick McKee: I think it's also Abbott and DeSantis shipping those
people to those cities up north.
Daryl Cagle: so Rob, Here's another one from you.
You've got the U.S.A.
Law enforcement agent standing at the border, holding back a sea of kids.
And he says, what makes you think we'll feed, clothe, and shelter you
during this humanitarian crisis?
Have you seen how we treat our poor and inner city kids?
Rob Rogers: Yes.
See, so this was done during, this is 2014, so it was done
during the Obama administration.
And there were already a lot of kids coming to the border then.
this is what I was talking about in terms of government.
It's my view that government , should be helping these people, not, putting them
to the side or, or putting them in cages or, otherwise making life harder for them.
And I know everybody sort of has a different view about how much government
should, should be involved in terms of welfare and, government programs.
But I think we can be, uh, a very human.
Kind of government and help people and I think it only makes us better and
Daryl Cagle: I think it boils down to liberals see conservatives as
heartless and conservatives see liberals as b leeding hearts.
Rick McKee: Yeah.
I think it's very similar to the homeless problem Where if you've
got a homeless person, you just go up and hand them a wad of cash.
You're not helping them You're enabling them.
And I think in this case, if you've got cities that are handing out prepaid
debit cards, and, we're immediately taking these people and, giving them
all, the rights that US citizens have, why wouldn't they flee here?
I mean, it doesn't make any sense.
It's enabling.
And it's destructive to them.
It's not helping them out as far as their travels here.
Rob Rogers: Yeah, but most immigrants want to work and and one of the problems
is they have trouble getting work visas And I think that that's part
of the immigration policy problem We haven't solved it and congress has
been sitting on their hands for decades
Rick McKee: I know that most of them want to work but the talking point
became That not most of them want to work that most of them want asylum Okay,
show up at the border and claim you want asylum and they'll let you in and
I saw a clip where MSNBC reporter went to those camps that they set up Looking
for people seeking asylum because that was the thing And he walked around it
was all these single young men going.
No, we just want to come there and get a job
Daryl Cagle: Here's one from Rivers.
You got the house, the American dream before Biden and the house
all overrun with immigrants saying American dream after Biden.
Rob Rogers: Are those immigrants or are those homeless?
This seems like he's trying to say it's it's a homeless problem now.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I can tell you I looked up these cartoons by keyword immigration
Oh, well, then it must be Rivers chose keyword immigration I threw in a batch
of cartoons from Angel Boligan probably the most prominent cartoonist in Mexico.
He draws for the El Universal newspaper and he's been with us for 25 years
And I thought that it was interesting to see the perspective from Mexico,
which, is entirely on the side of, sympathy for the migrants and, the
harsh, heartless United States.
Rick McKee: He's just such a fantastic artist though.
I mean,
Gary McCoy: yeah,
Rob Rogers: yeah, he really is.
I'm a huge, huge fan of his work.
Adam Zyglis: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Here's Uncle Sam sweeping the migrants out with a wall broom.
I like
Rob Rogers: the way he made the stripes disappear there.
Adam Zyglis: And he doesn't choose to color certain things.
There's no need.
Rick McKee: Masterful.
Really.
Daryl Cagle: This is the wall made of skulls.
Here's Trump walking along the wall, stepping on the
immigrants to make them fall off.
and I love it that you can draw Trump with just that little wisp
of hair and you don't need anything
else to define him.
Here's a poor angelic, would-be migrant being burned at the wall.
Here's Uncle Sam, using the wall to saw Mexico away from,
the rest of the continent.
Also, I love that you can make Uncle Sam's head so small and minimal . And here is,
our, pressures tearing the migrants apart.
Anyway, there's a ton of these, and I just thought to get the perspective
of the foreign cartoonists, the Latin American cartoonists, that is so
different from ours, even the liberal American cartoonists, because the foreign
cartoonists, Latin American cartoonists are just all about, the heart of it
and the, feeling bad for individuals.
Adam Zyglis: It's from, you know, it's from the perspective of the
migrant always.
Mm hmm.
Gary McCoy: Because they're not, they don't want them in their country.
I mean, Mexico obviously doesn't want because they
Daryl Cagle: feel sad for these people.
Gary McCoy: They feel sad for them, yes.
As I feel sad for them, yes.
But
Daryl Cagle: You think he's motivated to draw this cartoon because
he doesn't want this person in
Gary McCoy: his country?
I'm not impugning Angel's motives.
He's, he's amazing.
I loved his show in Sant Just.
He's a great guy.
But, I'm saying, in general, you think they want the, the crime problem,
the fentanyl problem, everything?
They got.
a ton of problems already.
The drug cartels run the country, but
Daryl Cagle: you don't see any of that in Angels cartoons or
in the South American cartoons.
What you see is this,
Gary McCoy: I of, of course, of course, Daryl, you think
they're gonna, I mean, okay.
I'm not gonna impugn their motives.
I'm talking about the people in general, the countries,
the, the president of Mexico.
Daryl Cagle: You don't think that the cartoonists reflect
the views of the, readership.
Gary McCoy: Daryl, their economies can't handle the, the
numbers of illegal immigrants.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, but that's not what these people are
telling you that they care about.
Gary McCoy: Okay, I, well then, okay, I'm telling you I care about them, so then I
should be given a, you know, pat on the back for being a compassionate person.
I do care about them.
In fact, I care about
them so much.
With a kick me sign being left.
Daryl Cagle: We did a cartoonist trip to Mexico City where, Gary was on a panel
with some, Mexican pundits, arguing the bad guys side on, on immigration.
And, uh, that was just
Rick McKee: He was not arguing the bad guys side.
All right.
Well, but I thought that was just fascinating because,
Gary did a good job,
Daryl Cagle: Gary did.
And, and Gary kept his composure and made his arguments and the guys he was
arguing against were just so filled with passion that they were just,
ranting and, losing their composure.
Rick McKee: That's true.
Gary McCoy: Mike Keefe was there, too.
He was on the panel.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, but you were the interesting one on the panel, Gary.
I gotta say.
Gary McCoy: Oh, thanks.
Thanks.
Rick McKee: Gary came well prepared.
Daryl Cagle: Gary stirred things up and really got them to lose their composure.
Rick McKee: He really did.
Daryl Cagle: So, this one's from Chris Wyant, and you've got the wall with a,
Warner Brothers style hole in it from the character that bashed through is
Trump, and it says, Immigration Bill.
I think we found a new breach in our border security.
Rob Rogers: This looks like a recent one.
Is this, is this a recent
cartoon?
Adam Zyglis: It's another silhouette that, you know, like Rob did earlier, just that.
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Rogers: I like the part between the elbow and the arm, you know,
the arm is still floating there.
Just hanging there.
Rick McKee: I love that drawing.
I'm not, I'm not sure what the, uh,
Daryl Cagle: Also Trump has those kissy fishy lips and that
is quite a fishy kissy lip.
Um, he's almost sticking out his tongue.
Yeah, so here's another one of Gary's and you've got Uncle Sam shooting the migrant
out of the cannon back over the wall.
It's the best way to deport violent, illegal immigrants.
Rick McKee: That's great, Gary.
Daryl Cagle: And, we have no sympathy for that guy because
he's violent and, illegal.
Here we've got Dave Wamond, and he's doing kind of a traditional cartoonist
fruitcake cartoon, with them building the border wall out of fruitcakes.
We're building an indestructible wall as a bonus.
We finally found a use for fruitcakes.
This was a Christmas cartoon.
Rick McKee: You know, you're always looking for a good Christmas
metaphor that hasn't been done before, and, uh, that's That's a
fun one there to use in fruitcakes.
Yeah,
Rob Rogers: you don't really think of the border and Christmas going together there.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you know when it's Christmas time and the editors don't want
to print anything but a Christmas cartoon, what the heck are you going to do?
Rick McKee: Yeah, that's great, that's a great, great I'm going to steal that one.
I
Rob Rogers: have seen plenty of, like, Santa Claus being, abducted or captured
by ICE for coming into the country illegally and that kind of thing,
but the fruitcakes I've never seen.
Rick McKee: Well, Dave's a funny guy.
Daryl Cagle: this is when I did so back in Trump time when he was getting all
that grief and giving all the grief to Mexico I tell you every time I draw that
Mexican eagle, I get some grief because it offends people but I love that eagle
Rick McKee: Why does it offend people?
Daryl Cagle: Because they're very Mexican nationalistic and it is
disrespectful to their nation.
Adam Zyglis: Messing with the flag
and their symbol.
Rick McKee: That's a lovely illustration there.
Oh, I love that.
I love that
cactus and the Mexican flag.
It's great.
Well,
and this tie coming swooping down like that.
It's got a lot of movement to it.
Daryl Cagle: I like that snake too.
Yeah.
Two great characters and they can interact with each other on the flag.
And, that's just all great fun.
The cactus that he's on is fun.
Uh.
Rick McKee: It's very, it's a lovely drawing.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, well, thank
you.
So Rob, here's one of yours, the only caravan threatening America, and
you've got the migrant caravan, but it's not migrants it's all the hateful
MAGA people including the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazis and this is funny.
Rob Rogers: You know, it always, puzzled me when Trump would rant on
on about, you know, oh, these, these are terrible people that are coming.
They're murderers.
They're, you know, meanwhile, the people that he associated with are
the people that he, championed were, were a very ugly lot.
I don't know how close this was to Charlottesville, but.
but I think it was probably near, that time.
and of course this was when Brett Kavanaugh was, was also going
through his, um, his hearings.
Adam Zyglis: I've got beers for Brett back there.
Daryl Cagle: This is one thing that's frustrating for us.
We, we track how often cartoons are reprinted and, If there's ever an
appearance of a swastika or a Ku Klux Klan hood, they just don't get reprinted.
And, you know, when you actually have Nazis like in Charlottesville and Ku
Klux Klan lining up to support Trump
and you want to put that in a cartoon.
It's very frustrating for the cartoonist to just not get the cartoon printed.
Rick McKee: Well, not only that, nowadays, I don't know about other social media,
but like Facebook, if you were to post that, just the little, uh, KKK hat, and
I don't know about the swastika, but that would get you thrown in Facebook jail for
posting that, even though your point is.
Yeah.
Is the opposite their little algorithms and their little bots
that go around and find those images would you know, it doesn't matter
Daryl Cagle: I think someone complains and they don't even look at it.
They just got a complaint and they take it down
Rick McKee: Huh could be
Adam Zyglis: interesting.
I've had cartoons taken down for the similar reasons like After the
insurrection like having a noose in the image hang Mike Pence, and the
cartoon was removed from Facebook and they didn't bring it back.
yeah, it most likely is a complaint, or from a hashtag on Instagram,
sometimes they'll remove a cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: I've got four Facebook pages, and whenever I have, something
removed from a Facebook page, or they freeze it and I can't update it
anymore, it's always only one out of the four pages that has the same content.
Rick McKee: They need to, they need to fix that.
I mean, if we're going to have super smart AI that's going to.
take over the world.
They need to at least get that right.
Rob Rogers: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, this one's from Joe Heller.
You've got the coyote and his truck.
He's squeezing all the immigrants into the truck and he says, I'll get
you across the border, Republican governors will move you on from there.
which is true.
It's not a joke.
It's
Rob Rogers: true.
it is
... Rick McKee: but it has also sharpened this debate to the point
where maybe something will happen.
Adam Zyglis: Well, it's, it cuts both ways because being in Buffalo, we have
a huge, refugee immigrant population that's actually lifted the city.
It's added to the population growth for the first time in decades.
We have this Burmese population.
We have Burmese restaurants.
And so even some conservatives in Buffalo will acknowledge that we
need, we need this to, to grow.
But then they will focus on if one crime is committed.
By an immigrant or even though the rates of crime for immigrants or,
you know, asylum seekers is lower than the general population like that
will turn everybody against them.
Daryl Cagle: Are you getting bus loads from Texas?
Adam Zyglis: No, they come from, we're getting, they're shipping
from New York City immigrants that, they can't handle them.
The governor is sending refugees and immigrants to Buffalo.
Which we want them though.
Our democratic leaders want them.
But they have been, you know, they need to be screened, um, and placed properly.
It's not, it's just not like a, bring them all in!
Like there's, policy has to be set in place and it's being debated.
You know, you've got to do it carefully, but it can be
effective, if it's done right.
Rob Rogers: See, and I think you
Rick McKee: make an interesting point.
You say they have to be screened and they have to be all this, and
that's not what's happening in places like, these border states.
I just saw a story yesterday that said Eric Adams is moving to effectively end,
New York City as a sanctuary city status.
Daryl Cagle: Would that just be to placate Governor Abbott and, uh,
Rick McKee: No, I think it's
Daryl Cagle: Not a sanctuary, you wouldn't send the buses there?
Rick McKee: No, no, no.
I think it's, I think it's because they're having real issues with what's going on
with the people that are coming there and, they can't afford it for one thing.
anyway, I, I just saw this story yesterday.
Rob, this cartoon is cute.
You got, Disney coming off the plane in Martha's Vineyard.
I remember when they sent the plane load to Martha's Vineyard and, Mickey
says Governor DeSantis sent us, and it's just funny to see the Disney
characters getting off the plane.
Adam Zyglis: Yeah, that's a great Mickey.
Rob Rogers: Oh, thank you.
I didn't, I didn't create Mickey.
Adam Zyglis: But I love the old school Mickey.
Rob Rogers: Yeah, I like the old school Mickey.
I always draw him the old school, even, even before the, Steamboat
Willie thing went out of, copyright.
Now you can just do it.
Yeah.
But, but I think, um, what, what was
Daryl Cagle: That's not a Steamboat Willie.
Rob Rogers: No, it's not.
It's not.
It's sort of the in between, in between Steamboat and the, uh,
and the, and the final version.
Uh, probably like the second or third one.
I think what was funny to me about this was just his feud with Disney
seemed so preposterous and so, Anti conservative, I mean, he's a business
guy, you know He's a florida governor in a conservative state and they should
be pro business, but he's going after these guys And it's just ridiculous.
And so
Rick McKee: I mean i'm in i'm in Florida.
I have to agree.
It's dumb I mean, why would you go after the biggest?
Employer the biggest, you know economic draw in Florida Why would you do that?
If you're a conservative
Rob Rogers: anyway.
So when, when they, when he started shipping people to Martha's
vineyard, I sort of thought, you know, I'll take it one step further
and he's going to ship Disney.
So that was
Daryl Cagle: So here's another one of yours, Rob, he's holding a sign
that says stop the great replacement.
And the native American says too late.
Rob Rogers: That's exactly how I imagined you would talk.
Great Indian voice.
That's good.
Rick McKee: Meet Injun, yeah.
It's like the Indian from the Peter Pan cartoon.
That's
Daryl Cagle: right.
We did get a few of them on this theory.
Here's John Darkow with the Native Americans talking about the Pilgrims.
He says, he asked me if I've heard anything about Great Replacement Theory.
It makes a good point.
Rob Rogers: No, it's true.
I mean, I think, I think it's the same thing with immigration, you know, when
people talk about immigration and you have to remind them, well, you know,
at one point, all of our families immigrated here, some in some form,
unless we are Native American and we're, you know, most of us are not so,
Rick McKee: and another beautiful drawing.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, what a beautiful drawing.
This is Rick.
Oh, thank you.
So here you've got the, Independence Day spaceship
shooting down at the White House.
And in the White House, they say, Sir, we're under attack by aliens.
And, the president or someone else says, You know, we prefer
the term undocumented non citizen.
Rick McKee: Yeah, that one, that one was fun to draw.
And, uh, you know, that's, reality.
They've no longer allowed to say, illegal immigrants or illegal aliens.
They have to use undocumented non citizens.
So that was a case of using actual quotes.
Like you were talking about earlier.
Adam Zyglis: And I love the, the colors are great.
It's got a great sense of space.
And three dimensionality.
Daryl Cagle: You're looking so much more conservative on this topic.
Than on other topics.
Rick McKee: believe it or not, I'm still conservative.
I'm just not Trump conservative.
Adam Zyglis: God bless you.
Daryl Cagle: Adam, I put in a couple of, Stephen Miller cartoons because
Adam Zyglis: Oh yeah, I remember this one.
Daryl Cagle: I just thought this was hilarious.
And I, you know, it, it is a border issue cartoon, but,
Adam Zyglis: You've got asylum seekers in there.
So it is immigration.
Daryl Cagle: Most people who watch the podcast.
Probably don't even know who's Stephen Miller is, but this was just so funny.
Rick McKee: That is funny.
That is hilarious.
Miller White,
Adam Zyglis: Miller White, ,,, , His White Nationalist advisor.
loved drawing Steve Miller because he's got those.
sunken eyes.
He looks like a villain movie character, you know,
Rick McKee: he really does.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: He does.
And he's someone that should be ridiculed in political cartoons,
but I just find that the readers know so few of these characters that
it usually needs to be explained.
And I appreciate it when you just go for it.
You don't try to explain things.
there's really very few, characters like this outside of just, half a dozen people
that you can draw and people are going to know who it is, even when you nail
the caricature and it says Miller on it.
Adam Zyglis: right, right.
Daryl Cagle: this is, this is one from Peter Kuper which has a very different
character, but he captures the same kind of Gestapo look of Stephen Miller.
And, I thought this was great too.
Rick McKee: That is great.
Kuper doesn't go beyond much of a, Climate change stuff these days.
So that's fun
to see.
Daryl Cagle: Well, the reason for that is that he's a regular in Charlie Hebdo
and they've got a environmental column and his job is to illustrate the column.
Rick McKee: Ah, okay.
Well, that makes sense.
Daryl Cagle: And it runs, vertical, along the side of the column, the
column on the left and the cartoon on the right or something like that.
Rick McKee: Okay, well that makes sense.
Adam Zyglis: I like how this is vertical, which is nice.
And I like the vintage comic book, theme or concept.
Matt Bors always had some good vintage
comic book cartoons that I enjoyed.
Daryl Cagle: The vertical ones work better on the Internet, on Instagram,
and, we still have the editors leaving this landscape sized hole in the
newspaper, and if you get a vertical one to them, they don't want to take
the time or don't have the, ability to change the shape of the hole and the
cartoons just don't get reprinted much in newspapers, which is what we measure.
So it's very frustrating for us, I think, at a time when it
would be nice that we could.
Not suffer from that landscape.
Rick McKee: No, I went through that, where I was drawing my cartoons more square, for
Counterpoint which is a electronic thing.
And I just realized, like you say, print's not going to touch
it if it's, more vertical.
electronic and online, they'll, they'll run it anyway.
So I just lapsed back into doing it more horizontally.
Adam Zyglis: I've always been more square with the Buffalo News and it's
just the way his face has worked.
sometimes the idea just lends itself to a vertical and you just have to work around
it, reframe it, re crop it, um, Re edit it, but it'd be great to have flexibility.
I see Ann Telnaes does like a vertical illustrated column
sometimes with the posts, which
is cool.
Daryl Cagle: It would be nice to have only one publication that you're
working for where you could talk to them and do different things.
Yeah, yeah.
This is a Venn diagram with good for the country crossing over into
good for Trump and Trump is Walking out of that shared area where it's
good for the country and for Trump.
Rob Rogers: I don't think he was ever inside that I think, I
think the drawing is all wrong.
Adam Zyglis: Well, I was told by several readers that the overlap for
that Venn diagram should be a little smaller, but I mean, in fairness,
Daryl Cagle: you got to fit an elephant into
it,
Adam Zyglis: there is some overlap there, but yeah, I mean, just this
self serving that equate, you know, how, loyalty does not equal patriotism.
this was in response to.
The immigration bill that was going to possibly pass and Trump, who was not even
elected, who's running, was basically telling the Republican party behind
the scenes to kill it because it'll make him look bad if Biden gets a win.
So this.
was showing how, you know, blatantly now, openly, he was just doing things
good for Trump when we know we could have passed this bill to help the country.
Daryl Cagle: And it also looks like he's giving all the migrants MasterCards.
Which they're doing in New York, right?
Adam Zyglis: That was a layer that I did not intend that
you picked up on there, Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: So gentlemen, thank you for joining us today.
Do you have anything more to say about the No,
Rick McKee: I think I'm all talked out.
Adam Zyglis: it was a great discussion and it was nice to see Daryl
and Gary get at it a little bit.
Rob Rogers: Thanks for having us.
Appreciate it.
Adam Zyglis: No, it was fair.
It was fair.
You were kind.
Daryl Cagle: kind is good.
All right.
very good.
Good to see you guys.
Hope you'll all come back sometime.
Good to see you too.
Remember to like and subscribe to the CagleCast wherever you're
watching it, and join our mailing list at Cagle.com/Subscribe to never
miss out on a new CagleCast and to catch all of the great cartoons
that you should never be missing.
And, gentlemen, thank you again.
Thanks for having me.
Good to see you I hope you'll do it with us again, Rob.
All right,
Rob Rogers: thanks.
That was fun.
See you later.
Rick McKee: Bye.