Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the CagleCast where we're
all about political cartoons and today our topic is Trump Toilet.
We'll look at cartoons about Trump on a toilet, Trump in a toilet,
Trump flushing and stuffing a toilet full of documents, and Trump
anywhere associated with toilets.
We've got a Trump Toilet Festival of cartoons with four brilliant
award winning editorial cartoonists, masters of the Trump Toilet genre.
Pat Bagley Is the brilliant cartoonist for the Salt Lake
Tribune in Utah since 1979.
Pat has won a ton of awards, including the Herblock Prize, and he's also
a shining star in our profession.
Great to have you here, Pat.
Pat Bagley: Well, thank you, Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: Tell us about this cartoon.
Pat Bagley: So this is a cartoon that I did when it came out
that Trump is flushing all of his documents down the toilet.
Okay, so this is from 2019.
And it's when he was complaining about water use and how they're restricting
water use of toilets and you gotta flush like 10 or 15 times to get it down.
Jack Ohman: That's
Rick McKee: great.
I love that Pat.
I love your little touches.
His toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe.
I think that's great.
Like Daryl said, there
it is.
Pat Bagley: Which actually happened, right?
Yeah.
He walked
up.
Rick McKee: Did that really happen?
Matt Davies: Yeah, that's right.
He's getting on the plane.
Pat Bagley: And you can see the toilet paper on his feet.
That's right.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, Rick.
Rick McKee was the cartoonist for decades for the Augusta Chronicle in Georgia.
He draws the comic strip Pluggers, and we've syndicated Rick for 20 years.
Great to have you here, Rick.
Oh, thanks, Daryl.
Happy to be here.
A lovely, Constitution as toilet paper cartoon.
Yeah, I
Rick McKee: you know, when I drew this, I thought this is probably not
going to get printed because I've got him, you know, on the toilet with
his pants down and his tighty whities showing, but I couldn't resist.
So I'm sure I wasn't the only one to do this, but
Daryl Cagle: yeah,
Matt Davies: I'm sorry.
I like how you've done the, uh, the spray tan line.
That's a really good.
Rick McKee: I didn't start out drawing him that way.
And then I started, you know, it started becoming more noticeable.
so I started sort of accentuating that.
And, of course, the little fly, you know, flying around back there.
Daryl Cagle: So, Jack Oman is the cartoonist for the San Francisco
Chronicle, and before that, the Sacramento Bee, and the Portland
Oregonian, he's won a ton of awards, including the Pulitzer Prize.
It's great to have you here, Jack.
Jack Ohman: Great to see you, all of you.
Rick McKee: Hey, Jack.
Daryl Cagle: And this is fun, taking the paperwork out.
That's great.
Rick McKee: And he's flush with cash.
Jack Ohman: This is one of those cartoons where you're just like
So many puns, so little time.
I think I jammed in three, so, No, it's two.
Cartoonists can't count, but anyway.
Daryl Cagle: And Matt Davies is the cartoonist for Newsday in New York.
He writes and illustrates popular children's books, and he's also
won a ton of awards, including the Pulitzer Prize and the Herblock Award.
Great to have you here, Matt.
Matt Davies: Great to be here.
Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, that's a lovely oval office.
Pat Bagley: That's a great, that's a great cartoon.
Rick McKee: That's the thing about, that's the
thing about Matt is he always finds that thing that you wish you
had thought of.
Pat Bagley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Davies: You guys are too kind.
I'm gonna look at the date, yeah, 2018.
I sort of held off on doing Trump in a, in a toilet until Remember when he said,
uh, this one was drawn in response to, um, when he was talking about immigrants
coming from, like, Central America and Haiti and African countries, and he called
them, and I know I'm not allowed to swear here, from the S H 1 T hole countries, and
so I just kind of like, was like, I don't even know, I don't know what else to draw.
Daryl Cagle: I have to apologize for that because YouTube gives us an
adults only rating when we are, too, explicit or, raunchy in our wording.
Rick McKee: Isn't it, isn't it a shame
that we've got to edit ourselves when we're talking about what the president
has said, we're quoting the president, we can't be quoted on YouTube.
Matt Davies: Of course, if you're looking for adult, material, there's stuff that's
a lot more interesting than us talking.
Rick McKee: You know, it's true.
Daryl Cagle: Yes, whatever's raunchy on our show is just potty humor.
Matt Davies: But this was early on in the cycle.
You know, we'll see a lot of the long ties.
If I were to draw this now, um, you know, because I've matured and evolved, um,
I would draw the tie longer than that.
Rick McKee: Exactly.
Daryl Cagle: Trump is wonderful because he's just so, descript in his cartoon,
cliches with the tie and the blue suit and The hair, the fish lips, the big
belly and, you could just draw any one of those and, you know, it's Trump.
And that's wonderful.
Rick McKee: Well, he is, he is a cartoon
Matt Davies: yeah.
Yeah.
He's like a walking, logo, right?
Like he's so simple.
Like he's just like, you do the mouth, the hair, the tie, and it's
just like, boom, you can, you, it's.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it's like the comedian
Rick McKee: John Mulaney said years ago, he said, Trump is like a hobo's
idea of what a rich guy is, you know.
I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have the golden hair.
I'm gonna have tall buildings with my name on them.
And I'm gonna hire my children to fire people.
Jack Ohman: Have you guys ever seen him in person before?
Matt Davies: Yeah.
Jack Ohman: I saw him at the, uh, 20 Gridiron dinner.
I I did the menu.
And so I got an invitation to go and we were sitting very close
Rick McKee: That's cool..
Jack Ohman: And, the entire U.S.
Political and media establishment were there.
And what I was really struck by was that.
You know, you look at him, and I just find him horrific to look at, and I've hated
him the second my brother in law gave me Trump the Game in 1988, and I was like,
what the actual blank did I do that for?
Um, I, I was, I thought he was a very striking looking in person,
and just really stood out.
He looked different than every other person in the room.
Nobody looks like that weird.
Matt Davies: He's also really tall, right?
I mean, I met him a bunch of times back in the 90s when I worked in Westchester,
New York, and, um, he would come because he was building golf courses and he
came in and lied about what rules he would adhere to etc, etc But the thing
that struck me there, of course, he was a lot younger then But he was really
tall like I you know, you know when you meet someone who's famous and they're
usually much smaller than they Right.
Then you, then you, like, they're usually like five, five or something.
And he's like, like I, when they said that he was six,
three, I was actually surprised.
I would have put him more at like six, but he was like really tall
and he had a really long coat on and he was also extremely friendly.
I mean, he's very, um, pleasant guy in, person.
It's just when he got into politics that he turned into, you know.
Something slightly different.
Rick McKee: I've heard that.
I've heard that he's pleasant.
Daryl Cagle: I started my career in New York, and Trump
was just a big character then.
Back in the 70s and early 80s, he did the Wollman Rink.
He was in the news all the time.
And, uh, I didn't have anything like the picture of what Trump is now in my head.
He was a thin, tall guy.
and, and it was difficult for me to learn to draw him the way he is now.
My first trumps are just terrible, skinny Trumps and, and, uh,
just not at all what Trump is.
So I, I hate looking back at them.
Jack Ohman: That's kind of a funny, observation.
And, you know, when we all, start caricaturing somebody.
It's not exactly like he burst onto the news or anything, but, The people who are
the hardest to draw are the people who are most Like a caricature in person and
you know when Gingrich came out and you know John Kerry's very unusual looking
guy and you know a couple people like that and a lot of cartoonists will think well
You know, I've really got this caricature knocked because I can just do the hair do
you know, whatever obvious characteristic But you can really blow the caricature
and to Daryl's point I had a hard time getting on Trump for about a year.
Honestly, it wasn't wasn't happy with You know how I was drawing him.
I am now, but of course, I, you know, have to been exposed to
him for seven or eight years.
Matt Davies: I agree, but that would be an interesting, uh, segment to
do is the evolution of our Trumps.
I hate the way I drew him at first, even that one in the,
the oval office one there.
I'm looking at him like, we all do this, right?
When you, when, when you get a, a new president or politician and you have your
first kind of stabs at the caricatures and it kind of looks like them and then Maybe
it's a little too much of a portrait of them and then you gradually evolve your
caricature to be more of their personality and, um, and just get better at it.
And like, I do a better Trump now, and I'm sure you guys feel the same way.
I just draw him better than I used to, you know, I mean, like
even that one's better than, than the one that wasn't there before.
Jack Ohman: I can't stand the way you draw Trump now.
Honestly, I
Rick McKee: was
Matt Davies: working on it.
I mean, no, you know,
Daryl Cagle: this is a great Trump and and, the poop in the rotunda.
I think that's wonderful.
This is great.
Matt Davies: that was my January 6th.
Um, and I just didn't know what else to,
Daryl Cagle: Oh, that's great for January 6th.
Pat Bagley: You nailed that one.
Jack Ohman: That is a magnificent cartoon.
Rick McKee: And the tie, yeah.
Matt Davies: The tie is actually in the, well, okay, so, um, I hope
my editor's not watching this, but, uh, I told her that this was mud.
I'm
not sure that she believed me, but you know, uh, plausible
deniability on that one.
Um, you know, we are a family newspaper, but I'm sorry, I was just
going to say the, but the mouth, and I know you guys probably all sort of
go there too is like Trump's mouth is, he, he looks like a tardigrade.
Yeah.
Rick McKee: Yes.
Yes.
Matt Davies: Right.
Only he has four legs instead of six.
But otherwise he's,
Rick McKee: or an orange-i-tan
. . Daryl Cagle: Yes.
You know, there, there are actually quite a few of Trump spinning in the
toilet being flushed, and this was mine.
Matt Davies: That's great.
Daryl Cagle: And it's pretty old.
And it's kind of an optimistic cartoon I think because, he
never really does get flushed.
He's always around, but it always seems like something is the next
thing that's gonna flush him.
Rick McKee: Yeah, I love what you did with his hair there.
What was your thinking, Daryl?
What were you thinking?
Daryl Cagle: You know, I don't remember what event I drew this for.
Um, and, uh,
Rick McKee: Is that mud?
Is that mud splashing up over there?
Daryl Cagle: Here's my, my rotunda cartoon.
And this was also an early Trump.
But this cartoon never goes stale.
I could bring it back every couple of years.
Rick McKee: It's true.
Very good.
Matt Davies: You know, you raise a good point.
Like where you were talking about the, that thing.
And I think, I think we all.
Have encountered this over the years, you know, when he first came down
the escalator and he started calling Mexicans like rapists and stuff and he
literally like every he did things that made us do cartoons where we were like.
That's how that's just, there's no way he's going to survive this.
Like this is terrible.
And it would, and it became difficult to make the cartoons.
He was worse than the cartoons that we were doing.
And then you do a cartoon and then three days later, he does
something that's even more.
And so I mean, I referenced the tardigrade, you know, tardigrades,
you can't kill them, um, you know, in space, I think, or something like
that, but he has that same resilience, like, it doesn't matter what he says
or what he does, you can't flush him, you cannot, which gets to work.
Rick McKee: And he's almost impossible to satirize, you almost cannot.
Whatever it was, he just said,
Matt Davies: yeah,
Daryl Cagle: we did Trump as a dog and Trump as Hitler.
And this is our Trump toilet podcast.
These are standard metaphors for cartoonists.
how much can you exaggerate something?
Here's the most I could exaggerate it.
And, we had, Close to a hundred cartoons on each of those.
Trump Dog, Trump Hitler, and Trump Toilet.
and that's just from our group.
because I can search our group, but I can't search the other groups.
that's a heck of a lot.
This is just our go to place is the toilet and the Hitler.
Jack Ohman: You know, uh, since I've been in this business, Slightly
longer than Bagley, probably.
Rick McKee: Oh, fighting words,
Jack Ohman: No, but you know, Pat, I mean, we've been around the track, you
know, we started in syndication in 80 and, there were these with each, you know,
couple of years, there'd be some frontier of taste, that you couldn't go past.
And the first one I remember very clearly was.
Something about, urinanlysis in the Reagan administration, and I remember
drawing a cartoon about it, and I was like, oh God, I can't believe
I'm doing this, but like the taste thresholds were so different in 1980.
You know, I wonder whether Herblock did a toilet in his entire career.
I mean, you know, he did a sewer or something like that, but like, I can't
visualize a toilet cartoon that Herb did.
Matt Davies: You mean actually drawing a toilet?
Yeah.
Because that would have been like gauche.
Jack Ohman: Yeah.
So now you have a president of the United States who's establishing a new low in,
cultural taste norms every 20 minutes.
So you're almost like trying to keep up with them and as, you know,
somebody from Minnesota who very likely is related to Pat Bagley
because my great great grandfather had four wives and 38 children.
Um, true fact.
You know, you're just like, God, do I, I don't, do I, I don't go there, you know.
Matt Davies: Yeah.
No, which is why another four years of Trump is so daunting because
we've used up all of the metaphors.
Jack Ohman: Buddy, if we get another four years of Trump, you're not going to
be drawing political cartoons anymore.
Rick McKee: You'll be on the run, Matt.
You can stay with me.
We'll run together.
Matt Davies: All right.
We'll go, uh, we'll go to Portugal with, with
Pat Bagley: Pat.
uh, Portugal.
Portugal's nice.
Matt Davies: Well, you know,
Rick McKee: the Daily Show just did a thing the other day I saw a clip
of or talk about, you know, how Trump sort of moved the goalposts and, uh,
It was a whole super cut of clips of people criticizing Obama because he
had a selfie stick in the Oval Office.
Daryl Cagle: I
Rick McKee: didn't even remember that and I thought, oh no, and how he, how he
was degrading the office because he had a
selfie stick.
Matt Davies: Yeah, it was the.
Uh, saluting the Marine with a Starbucks cup and then the tan suit, right?
Those were Oh, and the tan suit, oh.
Just the end, the end of, of civilization and decency as we know it.
Well,
Rick McKee: God forbid a tan suit.
Daryl Cagle: I should point out that this lovely White House
Trump toilet is by Joe Heller.
And the very, very nice Joe Heller.
Ha ha ha.
The long tie.
Very good.
Rick McKee: Long tie the small hands.
Daryl Cagle: Here's John Darkow drawing on the fabric, paper it's the Donald J.
Trump presidential library.
There were tons and tons of cartoons of the presidential library is some
variation on the toilet or the sewer.
You know, I've drawn sewer pipes coming out of the White House.
you know, one, one thing we do.
With our little syndicate is we, track, the usage of the cartoons very closely
and, we tracked through the Trump administration to where editors were not
wanting to print Trump cartoons at all.
they just were not being reprinted, but they were still
very popular on the internet.
And we can also track things like, bodily fluids and see that editors don't
like to reprint bodily fluids and, you know, those do well on the internet,
and they also do well in the podcast.
And so we've got all these cartoons that hardly anybody has seen, Trump
and, metaphors that editors don't like, that we're just doing all these
podcasts with, and that's working for us.
Jack Ohman: I might, I might not be participating in the
bodily fluid podcast, Daryl.
Matt Davies: Oh, it's too late.
You're already in it.
That's the second segment here.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Rick McKee: Such a great style.
I like, I like his stuff.
Matt Davies: Yeah, yeah, me too.
Daryl Cagle: Here's Steve Sack's that was the National Archives Museum.
Presidential papers from the, the toilet.
This is very nice.
Of course there was that, report of, Trump flushing classified
documents down the toilet.
Matt Davies: The great Steve Sack.
you know, what's interesting is that that It doesn't, he's got,
that explains his weird obsession with flushing toilets 15 times.
Cartoon totally doesn't need that.
it's, it's so strong, right?
It's just, it's great.
Daryl Cagle: This is Stéphane Peray, a French cartoonist who lives in Thailand
that we used to syndicate until, Well, until he, he started losing his papers and
retired like so many of our colleagues.
and, this is, this is a cartoon that I know none of our
American editors would print.
They don't like to print.
Poo poo cartoons.
He did a follow up cartoon.
Rick McKee: Oh, it's a double, it's a double whammy.
Daryl Cagle: It is.
They don't like flipping the bird in cartoons either.
But it works for us and it works for the internet.
And I guess it works in Thailand.
That's great.
Here's Jimmy Margulies with Toilet Water.
This distinctive Trump toilet water is a blend of classified
documents, incriminating evidence, and financial trickery.
Jack Ohman: This is like the most inside joke ever.
Now I'd like to do some other illustrators from Nebraska.
My Paul Fell cartoon
Daryl Cagle: is You know,
Matt Davies: Daryl.
Daryl Got that.
Jack Ohman: We all love Jimmy, incidentally,
Matt Davies: the Filipino.
Oh yeah, yeah, we Jimmy's awesome.
Uh, he's very different.
The, um, the Filipino, it's interesting that, and I don't know how many more
you have here from, from, uh, overseas cartoonists, but it's interesting how many
places, how many foreign cartoonists were able to do scathing cartoons about Trump.
Daryl Cagle: You're thinking of, uh, Manny Francisco
Matt Davies: well, but they wouldn't be able to do, but they couldn't be,
I mean, even the, I even saw Chinese cartoonists doing cartoons about Trump,
that were really scathing, but they could never get away with being that.
Vociferous and, uh, and critical of their own leaders, you know, like
Jack Ohman: yeah, no Xi cartoons on the toilet, right?
Daryl Cagle: Well more than half the world's population lives in
a country where cartoonists can't draw their country's leader.
Matt Davies: Right.
Daryl Cagle: And that is, very disturbing.
Matt Davies: Which is what we're afraid of.
Rick McKee: Yeah, that's coming up.
That's uh,
Pat Bagley: yeah yeah,
Rick McKee: around the corner.
Daryl Cagle: it usually comes in when they start suing the cartoonists.
I have a cartoonist friend in Algeria, Ali Dilem, who says he always has 20
lawsuits simultaneously from leaders that are insulted by his cartoons.
We had one cartoonist, Shooty from Slovakia that had his cartoon go to the
Supreme Court and when he was being sued by the President of Slovakia for hurting
his feelings because he had a sore back.
he drew a cartoon of the President.
getting, an x ray and the doctor says, uh, you, you can't have
a bad back, you're spineless.
And,
uh, you know, to the Supreme Court, that's terrible, EU country, and that
happened in, uh, Czech Republic as well.
And, I, I think it's a real threat.
Pat Bagley: I was
this last year I was threatened with a lawsuit?
By a pretty powerful corporation in Utah and, uh, the paper backed me up and the
lawsuit, well, the threat was Pat Bagley has to apologize before this date or
we're going to sue and the paper said, we got you covered and her law firm
wrote back to them and said, well, you can't do this because the first amendment
grounds because of this amendment.
Because you ARE crooks.
Jack Ohman: I want to meet your general counsel, buddy.
Daryl Cagle: The truth is a defense.
Matt Davies: I've been, I was sued.
I was sued by a congressional candidate in New York for a
million dollars for defamation.
I called him a racist.
Because he, he was, um,
Daryl Cagle: Because
Jack Ohman: he was.
I
Matt Davies: mean, Um, but it was the same, I was protected under the vaunted,
First Amendment and, so, uh, it was laughed out of court, but, uh, it's
still scary to get served by someone.
Guy came to my house and, you know,
Jack Ohman: I wonder why they even bother because, you know, the Falwell
decision was so clear and when, somebody like Tony Scalia is like your
lead defense attorney, uh, on satire.
I wonder where they are now.
Daryl Cagle: It's still expensive to be sued and even get it thrown out of court.
Pat Bagley: Yeah, but we thought Roe v.
Wade, we thought Roe v.
Wade was settled law too.
And they can
Matt Davies: change it.
Rick McKee: Yeah, I don't, I don't put anything past them if Trump gets back in.
I
don't put
Jack Ohman: I'm just going to quit, honestly.
No, I mean, why bother?
Pat Bagley: Well, they want you to.
That's the whole point.
Jack Ohman: Yeah, that's true.
Rick McKee: Well
We need you on that wall, Jack.
Pat Bagley: Yes, we do.
Jack Ohman: You need me on your cell block is what you need me, but, um,
I actually don't think this guy is going to win, and I've seen some really
interesting polling in the last couple of
days that convinces
me that's the case.
But, you know, a lot of us have been doing this for, you know, 30 years or
40 years, you know, and we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of Watergate.
And, You know, Nixon put Conrad on the enemy's list.
I remember very clearly, and Trump never talks about cartoons or cartoonists.
My only interaction with him was, I remember when I did do this menu
illustration for the, the Gridiron, in 2018, and he held up the menu and
showed it to Melania and he goes.
And puts it down.
So, you know, the only time I've seen the president personally
react to a cartoon of mine,
Rick McKee: he would
have to read to, uh, to know about cartoons.
So that we, we are sort of protected
there.
Matt Davies: Yeah, exactly.
Jack Ohman: Well,
I'm just, I mean, it's kind of an interesting point, you know, because
we're, we're throwing everything we've got at this guy every day and, 50 years
ago, Nixon was paranoid about Paul Conrad drawing him as, King Lear, King
Richard III or something, you know, like, so, it's a different environment.
And I don't think Trump knows who King Lear or King Richard III
is either.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, we are pretty siloed.
We get hardly any audience when we have conservative cartoonists on.
They only care about liberal cartoonists.
And, uh, same on my website, my social media.
it's the people that are liberal and agree with the majority of the cartoons
that are commenting and looking.
And, the conservatives go to their own silo and look at something else.
Um,
Jack Ohman: Branco.
Matt Davies: Oh, Branco.
And that and the other guy.
Yeah, they're
Jack Ohman: And the other guy.
Yeah.
We always say Branco and the other guy.
Matt Davies: Conspiracy.
They're like conspiracy cartoons.
Yeah.
They're, they're fascinated.
Rick McKee: I,
at his, I was, I was looking at his site just like the other day.
I was, what's that guy's name?
Jack Ohman: there's a Painter named McNaughton.
Is that who you're think about
Rick McKee: Garrison.
Jack Ohman: Oh, Ben Garrison.
Yeah.
Garrison,
Matt Davies: that's right.
Rick McKee: He had, he
had a, he had a, I don't wanna rip on a cartoon, but he had
a cartoon of Tucker Carlson.
Interviewing Putin, and on the table it had written, Real Journalism.
I was
like, okay.
Here's Real Journalism.
Daryl Cagle: So here, here's Taylor Jones, and he's got, uh, Trump-lax
policy softener, makes it easier to pass, and that's, that's funny.
Taylor
Rick McKee: Taylor
does beautiful illustrations.
Look at that.
Jack Ohman: Taylor's just the best.
I mean, he's just a, you know, Ed Wexler level, you know, Steve
Brodner level caricaturist.
Really fantastic guy.
Daryl Cagle: He does wonderful Trump hair.
Rick McKee: And we talked
about this on another podcast, but he used to draw Trump drooling all the time.
I don't know if y'all ever noticed that, but this is one of his
classic Trump drooling cartoons.
Daryl Cagle: Here's an excellent Pat Bagley cartoon.
Tell us about this, Pat.
Matt Davies: Great.
Pat Bagley: You guys are brave.
The only, the only way I could get this past my editors was to
keep him with his pants up, but I wanted to do the pants down.
Daryl Cagle: Did
you, did you, did you do it with the pants down and he told you to pull the pants up?
Pat Bagley: For my own
amusement, I did.
But.
Jack Ohman: People say Trump smells funny.
Maybe that's why, Patrick.
Oh, yeah.
Well, he's, yeah.
Absolutely.
Rick McKee: wThat as a great one, Pat.
I love that.
I love your illustration on that.
Daryl Cagle: This one's from Dale Cummings.
you know, there are a whole lot of Trump in the toilet.
often with just no explanation.
and they're all very nice.
Rick McKee: I'm not familiar with this
cartoonist.
Where
is he?
Jack Ohman: Well, is
that Dick Cummings in Canada?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Jack Ohman: Dale Cummings.
Yeah.
He's fantastic.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
And he's, he, all of his drawings look nasty.
Mm-Hmm.
. Yeah.
I like that nasty look.
Yeah.
And here's RJ Matson Federal.
Jack Ohman: He's wonderful.
Government documents here.
Yeah.
Rick McKee: He's a, he is a
maniac with the details.
I, uh, he always, I'm always impressed with
his artwork.
Daryl Cagle: Looks like it takes him forever, but he goes really fast.
Matt Davies: Really?
That looks like real wallpaper, like, that looks like the
actual Mar a Lago, uh, logo.
It does.
And the wallpaper.
It's amazing.
Jack Ohman: And the toilet actually looks like it would
function unlike the ones I draw.
Rick McKee: I think it might be the Mar a Lago logo.
I think it is, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: So here's Kristo Komar from Bulgaria, with the secret, toilet paper
yelling occupied and FDI open the door.
that's fun.
This is Randy Enos.
Randy Enos is, our oldest cartoonist.
I think he's 88.
And, you know, he was one of the original National Lampoon guys.
I grew up with his stuff in high school.
so it's fun to have him still around.
Matt Davies: Yeah, I met, I met him once in, uh, he and a couple
of other artists had a big studio space in Westport, Connecticut.
And I went there, and met him, when I was a lot younger.
And, um, yeah, lovely guy, really.
And I mean, obviously his work is, uh, legendary.
Daryl Cagle: So yeah, quite a storied career.
And he's just drawn for every place that publishes illustrations.
Jack Ohman: All those New York guys, you know, uh, Ed Sorel,
Arnie Roth and Jules Feiffer.
They all just kind of sit there and they're 94, and
they've been 94 for 30 years.
Right, right, right.
They will not die, you
know.
Daryl Cagle: That sounds like a business plan.
We're getting there too.
So, Rick, no job is finished till the paperwork is done.
Rick McKee: Starting to spot a theme here, Daryl.
Matt Davies: I like the tie.
You got the tie all the way along the floor.
Daryl Cagle: Excellent Trump.
Now this is from our conservative anonymous cartoonist Rivers.
He's got gMother Goose reading the book and she says, and then
the big bad orange man flushed all the papers down the toilet,
unnamed White House sources say,
and the stupid children Democrats say, I know it's a fairy tale, but I
want to believe, I want to believe!
Rick McKee: I
do find it ironic that, that the anonymous cartoonist is
mocking the unnamed source.
Jack Ohman: Daryl, do you
have a
policy of not using his name?
I'm
sorry, what?
What?
Do you have a policy of not using his name?
I mean, everybody knows what his name is, and I won't use his
name, but like, what's the deal?
Daryl Cagle: I'm fine with anybody being anonymous if they want to be.
And so we won't say his name.
If you say it, I will, edit it out because it's, you know, it's,
it's polite for him to, uh, Oh, are you're mouthing his name now?
No, I'm just,
I'm just.
That's a, that's an interesting, that's an interesting discussion.
Cause I mean, there are a lot of cartoonists with pen names.
so it's not completely unprecedented.
I mean,
my name is
Jack Ohman: Well, Rivers is a sea change to mix a water metaphor, right?
I mean, it's not like you start it off as
Rivers.
Matt Davies: Yeah, no, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, you know.
, Rick McKee: I know this was probably drawn beforehand, but, you
know, since this has been drawn, there's been actual photographs
of the documents in the toilet.
So, you know, this is no longer a fairy tale.
This is, not made up.
So if you were like, if you were like in
Brazil or Mexico or one of those countries, you wouldn't
be allowed to flush it.
You'd have to throw it in the little trash can beside
the
toilet.
Matt Davies: Right, right.
Nothing goes into the, yeah, yeah, no solid.
Daryl Cagle: So
here's Trump the Ripper by, uh, Ed Wexler.
Matt Davies: Oh, Ripper, yeah, Trump the Ripper.
That's a good, yeah, that's a good, uh, play on words.
I like that.
Rick McKee: Ed is a great artist.
A funny guy,
Ed.
Daryl Cagle: And, uh, Donald John Trump.
Here you've got Dave Whamond.
Don't worry, fellas.
I printed all your texts and flushed them down the toilet.
Rick McKee: That's good.
That's clever.
I hadn't thought about that.
Donald John.
Matt Davies: Oh, yeah.
I can't believe I hadn't used the John.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, well.
Rick McKee: I'm making a note.
Daryl Cagle: Jack, here's yours.
Watergate, 18 and a half minute gap and the Water-closet-gate,
uh, 18 and a half flushes.
That's very nice.
Rick McKee: That's great, Jack.
Daryl Cagle: Jack, your color makes me laugh.
I think your color is funny.
The one with Nixon had to have the sepia tone, I mean.
Yeah, yeah.
I like that.
I like that touch, yeah.
And this is great.
And again, here you've got all those bright colors, but it looks
sophisticated with the texture.
And I think that's really very nice.
Rick McKee: That's lovely, Jack.
That probably pops off the page, doesn't it?
Jack Ohman: Thank you, very kind of you to say, you know, on the Nixon cartoon,
I remember when he died in 94 and I drew a, tape recorder, you know, reel
to reel, and oh my God, even back then, young people were like, what's that?
Wow.
and again, we're 50 years out from this, and so, to draw a toilet that's
at least a referenceable, piece of equipment these days compared
to a reel to reel tape recorder.
Rick McKee: Yeah.
Matt Davies: That was, you know, that was my first killed
cartoon was, when Nixon died.
And I, I probably, a lot of people did this, but I did the 18
and a half minutes of silence.
A young, uh, inexperienced cartoonist at the time.
And my editor was like, yeah, I'm not putting that in the paper.
And I was like, why?
It's
funny.
Jack Ohman: Well, it's, it's 70, it's 72.
You're like the youngest cartoonist now, right?
Daryl Cagle: This is very nice, Jack.
And, you've got the FBI saying, no, you search the toilet and t hat's funny and
it's uh, it's bright primary colors.
That's great.
Pat Bagley: did Jack, did you do this before they found out that
he was actually storing documents?
In the, in the bathroom.
And when we posted the picture, these top secret documents
stacked next to the toilet.
Was
this before or after that?
Jack Ohman: I don't recall, that story moved really fast.
You know, and I guess, knowing that he did try to flush the
documents was known, right?
So that's this, the joke.
But I don't recall.
My memory's fading, you know.
Daryl Cagle: You know, this, it's funny.
I, I'd forgot.
I found this one when you asked me to, when you asked us to look for toilet
cartoons in a, um, I remember doing this and, uh, you know, it was a play
on the, the chain get in a sheriff Arpaio was famous for his chain gangs.
And, um, um, and I remember drawing it and going, do you think it's funny?
Anyone will remember those old Well, and I and so what so I you know, I grew up
in england and I moved here many years ago But you know, and there were a lot
of old houses that had those toilets and i've run into this from time to time Where
I have, you know, my, my hard drive was kind of scratched as a kid in England.
And so I have cultural references that people are like, what the hell?
Like, so I remember, like, I sketched that up and I was like, actually
concerned that my editor might be like, what, what on earth is that
happening on the top of that toilet?
Is that like, because it's the gag is purely because he's
pulling the chain on the thing.
And, you know, of course, You can't buy that in Home Depot
now, you know, it's the little
thing.
Rick McKee: I got it, and that's where Michael Corleone hid the gun, right?
I
mean, that's where he got the gun.
Matt Davies: Yeah, yeah.
It's an old Yeah, it's One of those elevated tanks.
Yeah, yeah.
Very good.
Daryl Cagle: And you have no obligation to draw eyes on Trump.
No, I, I, that's a thing that I've noticed that I do and I didn't
really make a conscious decision.
I, I've started eliminating a lot of people's eyes, when I think that
they're, um, uh, let's say, uh, let's just say I disagree with them.
I feel like taking the eyes away makes them, it, it dehumanizes them somehow.
I, I don't know.
It just makes them seem slightly more nefarious.
I've stopped drawing eyes on Vladimir Putin as well.
I don't know.
I don't know what that is.
It's, I probably need to see a
psychiatrist.
Jack Ohman: I know I, I know I eliminate mouths.
It's from time to time.
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
. You just get rid of it and you're like, how do you do that?
And yet it works.
Yeah.
Rick McKee: Sometimes it works.
Works much better sometimes,
Jack Ohman: right?
Well, my rule of thumb is if I can't catch the likeness, I
just leave that feature out,
so, you know.
Matt Davies: Right, right.
No, yeah, you're right.
And you put like, you, like you have it.
And then you put the mouth in and it looks like, it's like, Oh no, that doesn't work.
Daryl Cagle: I worked for many years for the Muppets and they had that same
philosophy about eyes, but never mouths.
They wouldn't delete mouths.
Matt Davies: Interesting.
Huh.
Yeah.
You need to better do this with the Muppet.
Yeah.
And here's another nice Pat Bagley.
Jack Ohman: Yeah.
You're from the wide stance state there, Pat.
Yeah.
. Pat Bagley: Yes.
Matt Davies: oh, you know what's interesting about, about this
O Okay, so we've all done a cartoon where, oh, you say what?
What?
And I was always, I always struggle with the, um.
What you put after it to make it sound like you're going, what?
And, uh, that that's effective.
It's a exclamation point and a question mark.
Daryl Cagle: I put in a couple of these, uh, uh, Republican toilet cartoons on
gays because there were a whole lot of them and you know, we could do, okay, this
Pat Bagley: back so senator who was in the airport was, he had the wide
stance Yes.
He is from, from, oh, Idaho, I think.
Yeah.
Larry Craig.
So that's what this is, this is what this refers to.
Right, right.
Because I first thought it was like a what?
Oh!
Yeah, no,
yeah.
You know, Pat, we all know Tom Meyer.
We haven't seen him in a while, cartoonist conventions.
But, uh, we had a joke for years about, there were two types of, The fallback
punchline for any political cartoon would be he would use the phrase Stockman
back when, you know, Dave Stockman was the OMB director and, you know, there'd
be something missing from somebody's office and it was his budget cutting.
And so he's Stockman.
And then the other one is now what?
And Handelsman and I have been talking about this for decades, you know, which
is like if you don't have a caption, but you got a good drawing, you say, now what?
Okay, well,
Matt Davies: or there's the.
That,
that is
the
Jack Ohman: right.
That is the, well, that's still, I'm sorry.
Don't get me started.
I'll bet I did one two weeks ago, but
Rick McKee: Look at
all that mud.
Oh,
hello.
Daryl Cagle: I did
this Ted Cruz, uh, it's a tribute to a Steve Bell cartoon about, George W.
Bush and he always drew George W.
Bush as a monkey.
And, I just, uh, I thought that was wonderful.
So I did a tribute cartoon, but there are just to make the point that, uh,
toilets are not limited to Trump.
Matt Davies: You know, it's fun.
Rick McKee: How many papers do you think are in
that?
Um, you know, I, as things change and these things are good for podcasts
and internet, uh, I'm not sure that we should, be self censoring
on these kinds of things anymore.
You know, you referenced, you referenced, uh, that this is a
tribute to Steve Bell's cartoon.
I, I remember talking to Steve about that, that cartoon, um, we were doing
a, an event together in, in London and, um, and he actually, it did appear
in print in The Guardian, but he had trouble,, even in England where pretty
much anything goes and, um, And he said he had to negotiate the amount of turds,
uh, and so they, so he took, he took a few out and then it was good to go.
Also happy 65th birthday to Martin Rowson and who could draw
this but make it even grosser.
Matt Davies: Oh yeah.
Daryl Cagle: And here's Dave Granlund flushing the Constitution,
Matt Davies: Dave's Trump, uh, Dave Granlund's Trump.
That's a good, that's a good Trump.
That really, yeah.
Yeah.
He's got the kind of,
yeah.
Rick McKee: He's got the mouth, the downturned mouth and squinting eyes.
Matt Davies: Yeah.
Kind of.
Bull Bullfrog kind of look.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: All right.
So, Pat, here is one of yours, the Donald J.
Trump Presidential Library, also flushing the, the documents down the golden toilet.
So, tell us about this one.
So I had this idea, and I thought, that's a good idea, and I did it up,
and I was gonna send it to you, but I thought, you know, you get that
feeling sometimes, maybe somebody's done this before, you do that Google
search, and you're not quite sure.
So I did show it to a couple of my, peers, a couple of my colleagues, and
they said, oh yeah, that's been done.
So I did not send this one in.
This was not published.
Rick McKee: Well, I think it's great, and I think, you know, it's a little
detail that I think cartoonists will probably get, other people won't,
but you really tried to, uh, get his signature down on those documents, so
it looks very much like his signature.
Another thing I think that's funny that I've noticed through all these
cartoons, or a lot of them anyway, is that sort of a solid gold toilet.
I don't know that there's ever been a story that he's got a solid gold
toilet, but all of us cartoonists sort of Picked up on that and
Matt Davies: no, there
was no, okay.
Yeah.
He definitely has has or had gold toilets.
Yeah.
Okay.
Daryl Cagle: I'm
sure it's not solid.
Pat Bagley: Gold, gold plate.
Matt Davies: Right.
Right.
It's cool.
It's yeah.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: When Johnny Carson died, I drew a cartoon that had Johnny Carson
at the Pearly Gates and, uh, St.
Peter says, uh, any cartoonist who draws me saying, here's
Johnny is going straight to hell.
And I collected all the straight and all the Pearly Gates.
Here's Johnny cartoons.
And, and there were about.
I guess 15 or so, and I put them under my cartoon, and I put that up on MSNBC,
and I thought that was fun, and, uh, nobody, nobody got the joke, they just
thought every cartoon was funny, and, we worry too much about this stuff.
Matt Davies: You know, my, what, what part of my, part of my employment agreement
with Newsday is No Pearly Gates cartoons.
Daryl Cagle: Is it really
? Matt Davies: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
My editor, she's, she's like, no Pearly Gates cartoons.
They're terrible.
Rick McKee: Good for her.
Matt Davies: Yeah.
No, and I, no, we, I mean, it was a, it's a humorous, employment agreement, but,
uh, uh, yeah, it's, let's move beyond.
The Pearly Gates.
Jack Ohman: I think if you can keep it down to a couple a year, , I think
Rick McKee: when I started, you know, I, I think I did my share early on.
Sure.
And I was like, and I was like, never again.
I was, whatever.
Whatever happened.
So I've never drawn another one of those things.
So, uh, everybody, thank you for coming to the Caglecast.
Be sure to subscribe wherever you're watching and, thank you so much.
And I will see you later and gentlemen, Next time.
Jack Ohman: Yeah.
Good to see y'all.
Matt Davies: It almost felt like a convention.
We,
Jack Ohman: well, you know, how am I going to turn this down?
You know, so, uh,
Rick McKee: that
was great.
That was great fun.
I had a good time.
That was a lot
of fun.