Daryl Cagle: Hey everybody, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast.
We're all about political cartoons, and today our topic is Trump Hitler.
You all know Godwin's Law, that every argument on the internet ends up with
a reference to Hitler, and it is just the same with editorial cartoonists.
we exaggerate things, and very often that exaggeration ends up as Hitler,
and You'll see Hitler in cartoons on all kinds of topics, but lately it
is a whole lot of Trump is Hitler, and so that's our theme for today.
We have lots of great Trump Hitler cartoons, and we have three
great cartoonists talking about all the Trump Hitler cartoons.
Taylor Jones is a brilliant cartoonist.
He draws for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University.
He was a staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo
Dia newspaper in Puerto Rico.
And he drew for many years for U.
S.
News and World Report Magazine.
And he's won a ton of awards.
And this is your Hitler here, Taylor.
Taylor Jones: Well, I'd completely forgotten this cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: Pat, can you read this Hitler for us?
Eich!
Sie
Pat Byrnes: Zee Third Reich
ist going to be huge!
Und zee Pols, they
love me!
I'm going to
get all their votes!
But
first, we must rid society of these low energy parasites to
make Deutschland great again!
Daryl Cagle: Oh, that was excellent.
So, uh That
Taylor Jones: was crazy.
Do
Daryl Cagle: you have any comments on this one,
Taylor Jones: Taylor?
Well, I think first, I think they should, uh, uh Bring a remake of a
Hogan's Heroes and have Pat star in it.
Pat Byrnes: I'm going to be Schultz.
I'm Schultz.
Bill Day: What year was this?
Daryl Cagle: What year was this?
I think this was 2015.
Wow.
Taylor Jones: It might have been.
You know,
Pat Byrnes: You called it.
Bill Day: That was while he was running.
Daryl Cagle: It
Taylor Jones: was.
It was.
I don't know.
The reference just occurred to me early.
I am just so jealous.
the rhetoric really hasn't changed in the
Bill Day: Well, you beat me to it!
Daryl Cagle: now we move on to, Pat Byrnes.
Pat, here is one of yours.
Can you read this one to us?
Pat Byrnes: My mom's old enough to remember when Hitler was bad.
Daryl Cagle: we're seeing so much Hitler now.
Even so, the editors don't like Hitler cartoons.
Hitler cartoons don't get much reprint.
You see Hitler cartoons on the web.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, probably some of them are pro Hitler.
Yeah, you
Pat Byrnes: also see people talking about, I mean, they're flirting with it.
I mean, not counting the people on January 6th who walked around with the flags,
but there are people that are like.
They're, like you see the videos of, I don't mean to dehumanize people here, but
you see videos of like guerrilla wars.
I mean, G O R I L L A wars, where they run up to a line and they, they threaten
they, and then they kind of retreat.
It's the bluff.
It's the working up their nerve before there's actual combat.
And you see that kind of stuff happening.
And that's kind of creepy..
Daryl Cagle: I've got a list of, ten reasons for Trump to be Hitler.
he is the leader of a personality cult.
He's a strong man leader.
Theatricality and massive political rallies.
Hyper nationalist.
Calls for bans and deportations of immigrants who are vermin
poisoning the blood of America.
Wording from Mein Kampf, the fetishization of masculinity, vengeance, the lost
golden age syndrome, promises to purge the disloyal, readiness to use
violence in politics and demonization and calls to jail opponents.
that is a heck of a lot of similarities.
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, all he has to do is annex the Sudetenland land and he's there.
Taylor Jones: You know, sometimes I wonder, if Hitler had been around today,
would he be sort of more like Hitler or more like Trump and vice versa?
Hitler was able to make great use of a new technology.
Of the time, uh, which at least was radio of course, people respond more viscerally
to, audio than they do to video.
And, that's one of the reasons why talk radio is so successful.
and, uh, you know, Hitler would have, I think, been a creature of his time
whenever he might have appeared.
Daryl Cagle: Well, we do have to acknowledge that Hitler is the greatest
mass murderer in history, and I don't think Trump rises to the levels of that.
So it is an exaggeration,
but it is
Pat Byrnes: Stalin got 9 million.
Taylor Jones: Yeah.
Well, I thought Stalin got more.
Depends on, you know, who you ask.
Yeah.
Pat Byrnes: He wasn't as good at branding though.
Taylor Jones: The point I was trying to make was that I think that political
leaders are creatures of their time.
And, and I don't know that.
today, in a, highly advanced, highly industrialized nations like Germany.
I don't know if they could be capable of producing a kind of figure like
Hitler, who was both, technologically and politically, the product of his
times and the resentments of his times.
But I think those, those change, by the way, just want to say Pat.
I love Your kid there with the shirt tails hanging out.
That's great.
Daryl Cagle: you have wonderful body language in your cartoons Pat.
Pat Byrnes: Well, isn't cartooning acting?
Taylor Jones: I think you're demonstrating that it is.
Yes
Pat Byrnes: I believe it is.
It's um, I mean, it's, it's, it's art.
I mean, composition and all that stuff, but that's the emotion part.
You need the body language.
We're not just.
puttin stick figures in
Daryl Cagle: there.
So, to introduce you, Pat, you are best known for your cartoons in The
New Yorker, you draw all kinds of gag cartoons for other magazines, you did
a comic strip for years called Monkey House, and you're an advertising
illustrator who's won a bunch of awards.
Pat Byrnes: How do you
Daryl Cagle: do?
Okay, Bill, moving on to you.
This is great.
This was actually an early one too, Bill.
You've, I think you hold the distinction of drawing more Trump Hitlers
than any of our other cartoonists.
Bill Day: Well, I'm proud of that.
I have to say.
You know, I grew up, I grew up in the South.
I grew up in Florida and when I was the age of 10.
accidentally coming home from a drive in a movie theater, I saw
a Klan rally and a cross burning.
And from that day on, I had been aware of, of fascism and Hitler and Trump
remind me so much of each other because.
to, to me, the, the 10 reasons that you just listed are absolutely true.
I had nightmares as a child, uh, thinking that maybe a cross would
be burned in my front yard, because I had seen what they can do.
And here in Florida, the Nazis and the Klan are very, very
strong, very powerful people here.
And Trump and DeSantis.
Have enabled, all these Klansmen to come down and all these Nazis to move
to Florida because they're welcome here.
We have an overpass in Orlando where Nazis take their flags, those Swastika
flags, and wave them to passerbys that come underneath the bridge.
And DeSantis's press secretary said, well, those are actually leftists
that were dressed up as Nazis who want to make the Nazis look bad.
Daryl Cagle: ANTIFA..
Bill Day: So that's what we're dealing with here.
That's what
we're dealing with.
Daryl Cagle: Here you go, Bill.
Tell us about this one.
Here you've got, Lady Liberty with a Trump Hitler mustache.
Bill Day: Yes.
Yes.
Somebody got up there and painted Trump under her lip.
That's what American can become if Trump has his way.
Taylor Jones: Good composition, Bill.
Looks good.
Pat Byrnes: Exactly.
You know, I just got just got just enough of that arm to
suggest that's a nice touch.
Daryl Cagle: You know, the Hitler look and the Hitler mustache and the hairdo
is really very 1920s fashionable chic.
And, I'd never really thought about that because he has his own look and, you know,
it's a cartoony look and it is Hitler.
But, you know, if you look at it as a style of the time, he was,
he was being very fashionable.
You have no comment on that?
Taylor Jones: I, I don't know.
I've paid a paid attention to a lot of faces, photos from that era.
I don't know about that, Daryl, because, he was brutally made, you know, made
fun of in cartoons in, in elsewhere in Europe, in the west before the war.
And, they certainly.
Daryl Cagle: Look at those John Held Jr.
cartoons.
You see some Hitler mustaches in those.
Taylor Jones: You do, you do, but, I guess the Hitler mustache, that, that
succeeded the Kaiser Wilhelm mustache.
The two small points, you know, coming up like this and, uh, mustache styles.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another one from you, Bill.
You've got the Hitler mustache on Lincoln that Trump has painted on him.
So what's the context for Trump painting this Hitler mustache on Lincoln?
Bill Day: He just wants to take away freedom.
He wants to take away what Lincoln stands for.
That's all.
Pat Byrnes: And a lot of his MAGA, maniacs like to point out that it, that it was the
Democrats who were fighting for slavery and, you know, it was the Republicans
who released the slaves and they don't seem to realize that some things
have changed over the last 150 years.
Daryl Cagle: You know, cartoonists on the right draw lots of Hitler, too,
and they depict the left as Hitler.
And, I think there is some reciprocity going on.
I'm gonna show a few of those later.
Taylor Jones: Trump likes to leave his mark.
And that's what he's doing here, and, when he would take possession of
some skyscraper or casino, the first thing was to rip off what was On the
front and put up giant Trump letters.
So he's just doing what he does best.
Daryl Cagle: I like how the paintbrush is also a little Hitler mustache.
Here's Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene preparing to wear their Hitler mustaches.
Pat Byrnes: Great paper doll set for the kids.
Taylor Jones: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: So for Marjorie Taylor Greene, what are her, reasons for being
associated with a Hitler metaphor?
Bill Day: Oh, I don't know.
I think she thinks she's nuts.
She fit in perfectly with him.
Pat Byrnes: The goose stepping for one.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Here is, uh, Angel Boligan, our cartoonist from Mexico City.
I thought this was a great looking cartoon.
know, these Trump Hitlers could be artful.
Yeah.
Taylor Jones: Well, he was an illustrator.
Pat Byrnes: What's the line from the, from the producers?
Oh, he was a wonderful painter.
He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon.
Two coats!
Daryl Cagle: Here's John Darkow.
Hitler says, your opposition are vermin.
You've come a long way.
As, Trump is a Nazi giving a salute and there's a vermin.
Bill Day: Yeah.
There's the vermin.
Daryl Cagle: Mussolini with hair mousse.
Taylor Jones: Well, that's the thing.
When you had, uh, one of the earlier podcasts with Ed Wexler
joining us, he could do that.
a, a good, Mussolini imitation, and Trump has some of the Mussolini
buffoonery, that, he likes to incorporate into his rallies and what have you.
Just his daily, his daily being,
Bill Day: he does like to cross his arms and do nods his head and,
Taylor Jones: right, exactly.
Bill Day: Exactly.
Right.
Daryl Cagle: He's got more of a, comedian's kind of delivery though,
you know, angry and ranting and yelling, and, you know, Trump
has some timing and, he muses.
Pat Byrnes: He's got the delivery of a bully.
it's mockery.
It's not comedy.
You, you can't tell by me sitting here and looking as large as you, but I was
not a large person ever in my life.
And when I was a kid, I was especially small and I looked
about three years younger than my age, basically a stem cell on legs.
And I also got straight A's, so I got bullied a lot.
I know bullies.
I know what they sound like.
I know what they act like.
And Trump talks like one.
His minions talk like it.
They don't say anything of substance.
It's just like boom.
They go for the insult.
So, um, yeah, it's not comedy.
Bill Day: They love him for being a bully.
Taylor Jones: That's exactly right.
They like his bully ness.
Pat Byrnes: Amen.
And what kind of sickness of the soul is that?
Daryl Cagle: Lots of name calling.
Yeah.
Pat Byrnes: Oh, yeah.
From the courtroom.
Daryl Cagle: You know, editorial cartoonists do lots of name calling.
A whole lot of cartoons are nothing but ad hominems, and you just
kind of laugh at the name calling.
Taylor Jones: Perhaps, Daryl, it's the revenge of people who were bullied.
You know, that, uh, the bullies get back at - hurt people with cartoons.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another Darkow cartoon with Darth Vader,
Osama bin Laden, and Hitler.
And Trump is walking up behind saying, Hey, bad hombres, whatever you tell
me, I'll take you at your word.
Taylor Jones: That's the tallest Hitler I've ever seen.
Pat Byrnes: A short perspective is the perspective of
Taylor Jones: Osama bin Laden is tall.
Daryl Cagle: Read this one for us, Pat.
Pat Byrnes: The vermin are poisoning the blood of our nation!
Daryl Cagle: The vermin thing is interesting.
People don't really say the word vermin.
It's one of those words that's not in a speaking vocabulary.
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, it's kind of a tell, isn't it?
Taylor Jones: Not anymore.
Daryl Cagle: Used to be.
We also don't talk about poisoning blood.
that's not a metaphor that people just pops off their tongue.
Pat Byrnes: A lot of Trump's, uh, MAGA minions in their, Twitter handles
have pure blood as part of their name.
Taylor Jones: Well, you know, sometimes I think, all this genetic stuff, genetic
testing, all the little kits you can get.
I don't think that's help matters in some ways.
I think it's like saying, well, you know, I'm, I'm really Norwegian American,
you know, I'm really Norwegian or I'm really, Swiss or something like that.
Pat Byrnes: And, and, uh, uh, that, that somehow that's, that's, that's better.
That's what really makes them is what their past was.
Daryl Cagle: So are you guys looking at the MAGA people
and seeing Master Race stuff?
Bill Day: Oh yeah.
Pat Byrnes: You got half right that race wasn't the way the word ends.
Daryl Cagle: So, here we've got Pat Bagley from Utah, and he's got Trump
saying, All these radical leftist vermin who compare me to Hitler will be shot.
Ominous looking cartoon.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, that's a really ominous Trump.
Daryl Cagle: Nice transition to the, grayscale.
Pat Byrnes: But yeah, he's, he's pledging his vengeance.
Daryl Cagle: yeah, they like the vengeance.
Taylor Jones: You know, I think a great, myth of the 1960s was that everybody,
was anti war and everybody was pro civil rights and that was hardly the case.
And you can certainly look back to Nixon, in 1968, and George Wallace
together got 57 percent of the vote.
and Nixon was using, speechwriters like Pat Buchanan, taking digs at
this or that kind of people and, and, I think that there's people out
there who want to go back, just want to go back and back and back, back,
before Brown versus Board of Topeka, back, back before the New Deal, back.
You it's very much, going back to a, to a time they want to remember
as a more pure and wholesome when certainly it wasn't, but they're
determined and they have never sort of been passed down to the generations.
they've never given up that hope and Trump has brought voice and
meaning to that way of thinking.
Bill Day: That's true.
Taylor Jones: All these years later.
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, he's, he's, he's permitted it.
And, he also came along at a time when celebrity culture was at its peak and
he rode that with no real achievement other than being born rich and.
spending some money, you get his name on a building, or twenty.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another Pat Bagley cartoon.
The every man in the middle says, Why is it always a choice
between the lesser of two evils?
With Hillary on the left with her emails and Trump on the right with, grand
evil Hitler and Klan and Satan and
Taylor Jones: Good cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: It is not, a equitable Choice there.
Pat Byrnes: yeah, the both sides-ing and stuff.
It doesn't work anymore.
Daryl Cagle: they do see the left as really, really evil.
Pat Byrnes: Pedophiles
Daryl Cagle: And I don't, I think they, yes.
And, I think there's more passion on the right than there is on the left.
Pat Byrnes: Let me tell you something
about, about bullies.
and name calling, they're going to call you the thing that they
can be sure is worse than them.
So I'm going to call you something that I know that I'm better than.
And where are they?
They're talking about Satanists and pedophiles.
That's what they think of themselves, that the only thing
worse than them are Satanists.
and pedophiles.
So there's a really low, low negative self image going on there.
Somebody doesn't do that unless they're afraid, deeply afraid that they're trash.
to use a racially loaded word.
Daryl Cagle: Well, there's got to be some point where the repetition
and everybody that, you're hanging with saying the same thing is,
Pat Byrnes: Emboldening
Daryl Cagle: just a matter of, well, well, emboldening, but it seems to me
like they actually believe this stuff that they're, I mean, there's not enough
psychological disorders to explain everybody taking this point of view.
Taylor Jones: Well, you know, one of the things I find difference between the left
and the right is that the left likes to satirize and the right like to demonize.
and in fact, generally speaking, um, right and satire don't work very well.
And once, once they choose their demons, these demons never leave.
you know, Nancy Pelosi is no longer speaker, and yet she's still as demonic
in their eyes as she was when they pegged her with that, Fifteen years ago.
Daryl Cagle: Taylor, I think people on the right would make the same
argument and say that the right likes to satirize and the left likes to demonize.
Taylor Jones: Well, I think anybody paying attention to
comedy would find that absurd.
Daryl Cagle: there is comedy on the right.
Absolutely.
People thought Rush Limbaugh was a comedy show.
Watch that Greg Gutfeld on, Fox.
He is all full of of name calling
Taylor Jones: but, but the, the emphasis, you said the magic
word there, Daryl name calling.
Pat Byrnes: Mirthful Laughter does not make you go out and beat people up.
Mirthful laughter makes you go out and hug everybody.
That's science fiction.
Daryl Cagle: The place where I see this played out is on the radio,
because all these morning zoo kind of shows, those are all liberal.
But all the talk shows are conservative.
And the conservatives don't listen to the morning zoos, and the morning zoo
people don't listen to the talk shows.
. Taylor Jones: As I see it, I'd like to see, Daryl, maybe you've got
a slew of them, but for instance, I, I have no trouble making
really vicious fun of Joe Biden.
I didn't have much trouble making fun of Obama.
Have you got a lot of conservative cartoons that are making fun of Trump?
Daryl Cagle: There are a few cartoonists on the right that make fun of Trump.
Michael Ramirez, for example.
Taylor Jones: Well, okay.
Daryl Cagle: But, not many.
By and large, they don't draw Trump just as, uh, liberal
cartoonists didn't draw Hillary.
there are more reasons on the left to dislike Biden for not doing
enough that people on the left have a lot of problems with Biden.
but when Hillary was running, we didn't see as many Hillary cartoons from
the left as we do Biden cartoons now.
Here's another Bagley with a nice black and white.
How did a nation famous for its music, literature, art, science, and humanities
fall for such a malignant clown?
Stay tuned, as Trump says, vermin!
I like this contrast with the black and white and the color.
Taylor Jones: Mm hmm.
Daryl Cagle: Because, Hitler is in
black and white.
Taylor Jones: Right.
Well, that is a good way to put it.
Daryl Cagle: This is our photorealistic, AI cartoonist, Bart Van Leeuwen.
I love that little, Trump balloon floating in the window.
Pat Byrnes: Now this whole thing about Trump saying he's never read Mein Kampf.
I believe it.
Because Mein Kampf.
Was a book.
Taylor Jones: I remember in junior high age, there was always some kid,
who would carry around Mein Kampf or the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.
And they, they almost, they, they, it'd be so dog eared and they just
have it with them all the time.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it's a big difference between those two books.
I mean, you make different inferences about who's holding it.
Taylor Jones: Well, the thing is that, but still, there was a fascination.
There was a fascination for some 14 year olds with Hitler.
It's a stage.
Daryl Cagle: There are some people that just like to be confrontational
and draw attention to themselves.
I put Alex Jones in that category.
You know, when I listen to him, I often think he's funny and likable when I listen
to him, even though he's so detestable.
He's picking and choosing things to draw attention to himself quite successfully.
Um, and that was true of a lot of those kids in high school, and a lot of the
people that put Nazi stuff on themselves, it's just to get other people upset.
Taylor Jones: Oh, I see the, I see a little Trump balloon as well.
Is that a standard for?
Daryl Cagle: I like that Trump balloon.
Pat Byrnes: Every day, if you, you know, follow what goes on on
Twitter, you see like, wow, how come everyone's saying the same thing?
They all get their talking points from various, you
know, right wing, think tanks.
Um.
Daryl Cagle: You know, we don't get talking points.
I get email from people that tell me, how terrible it is that I'm using
the talking points for my cartoons.
And, I would like to get the talking points.
I don't know where you sign up for that.
It'd be interesting to see.
I've never heard of a cartoonist who gets talking points.
Pat Byrnes: They were talking about this cartoon, they were
saying that, we have to return this country to the people who built it.
Kind of oblivious of the fact that it was built by slaves, They don't like,
like, that, that part of the history.
They like the keeping them down, but not acknowledging what
they did while they were there.
Daryl Cagle: Here's one I drew from the previous election.
I don't remember why, but I think that Trump was making, Hillary
Hitler allusions at that time.
Trump is also prone to this stuff.
So I have, Trump painting Hillary as Hitler.
he certainly
Pat Byrnes: I like the red beret.
Daryl Cagle: Was using every hyperbole he could use.
Uh, that was before we knew Trump always had a red tie.
Taylor Jones: Oh, yeah, right.
Daryl Cagle: Here's a John, Cole.
Springtime for Donald and the GOP, with our, our Donald Hitler.
Here's a Bob Engelhardt.
This was also an early one, 2015.
I always try to get the cartoonist not to put the years in their cartoons
because, a, Trump Hitler cartoon is an evergreen unless they see 2015 and
there they think, oh, this is old and stale when it actually never goes stale.
Here is Randy Enos, with the President Goose stepping onto
the Capitol on January 6th.
why do you think he has his finger under his nose?
Pat Byrnes: It's the, the fake mustache.
Oh yes, that's right.
That's, that's standard
Daryl Cagle: comedy.
Yes, yes.
Just the finger.
I've got my, I've got my comb.
Taylor Jones: Ha ha ha.
Daryl Cagle: Trump says, just thought I'd try it out Too over the top fellas?
That's Trump with his Hitler mustache.
Here's Marion Kamensky from Austria.
They know about Hitler in Austria.
Here's Marion Kamensky drawing Trump admiring the photo of Hitler
on the wall in the Oval Office.
Uh.
Pat Byrnes: You know what would have been nice?
I mean, this is, this is, this is real, I don't know, subtle,
sly, if it was on the other side.
Cause that's where he had the
Andrew Jackson portrait.
Taylor Jones: I like the curtains.
He's done a good job drawing the curtains.
Daryl Cagle: Andrew Jackson was also quite a vile character with his trail of tears.
Taylor Jones: He was also a real estate magnate, by the way.
No, seriously, seriously.
In fact, a lot of Indian lands were bought up and parceled out, you
know, to his buddies and sold off,
Daryl Cagle: I used to live in Nashville for a while and Andrew
Jackson's plantation is a big national monument there and the tourists go
to see it and you get to look at all the slave houses and, it's a crazy
experience to see him, both, Demonized and lionized in the same spot.
Well, you know, more lion, more, much more lionized than demonized.
Taylor Jones: You know, Daryl, I think that with, with Andrew Jackson and with
Thomas Jefferson, I think of them as sort of quintessentially American because they
truly represent the both sides that have within, you know, individual people.
The, the both sides that have shaped.
The United States from the beginning, from before, in fact, we became a republic.
I think with, Trump, he sort of symbolizes that as well.
I know that a new president will put, certain, paintings and, busts and
what have you in, in the Oval Office.
And I think having, Jackson there was, was very fitting for Trump, I think
Trump is not a diversion from the norm in terms of politics all that much.
Daryl Cagle: So you see Trump as an Andrew Jackson kind of character?
Yes.
Andrew Jackson also famously, disregarded the rulings of the Supreme Court.
Taylor Jones: Correct.
He was, and he was, well, Trump's doing, way of doing it was to pack the
Supreme Court, but nonetheless the same effect, but, but also, uh, basically,
a populist and, um, raising the rabble.
Daryl Cagle: So, I threw in a few here from the right.
This is a Conservative Cartoonist Rivers, and he shows, the guy wearing
a, rainbow unicorn costume pulling off his hat and it's Hitler underneath.
The mask comes off.
Miss me, says Hitler.
And, he's labeled the left wing.
They do draw the left wing as Hitler.
And I would imagine if we asked them, they would have a list of ten reasons why, the
metaphor of Hitler fits the left wing.
Although it doesn't spring to my mind.
Taylor Jones: Well, I think they missed.
Is that they, it'd be better if they, if, if you want them to do that, I think
it's better to have Lenin, you know, Vladimir Lenin, instead of a Hitler.
Pat Byrnes: Yes, since they call him the left wing communist.
Taylor Jones: rather than fascist, so.
maybe I'm, I'm missing something that the right wing is aware of that I'm not.
But, wouldn't this particular, uh, unicorn also have a pink triangle on its,
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I take your point.
He's got the rainbow horn.
so in the same way that, that Hitler murdered homosexuals, he's the left
wing and he's, I guess, no, it's, I still can't make sense of it.
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, I guess that it's the, I don't know.
Daryl Cagle: Why is he, why is he revealing that, he's, Really
anti homosexual, as the left wing.
No.
Now I can't make any sense of it.
I'm lost.
we need Rivers here.
Well,
Pat Byrnes: I'm sure there's a good explanation, just
like they can explain "Q".
Taylor Jones: Maybe this is, you know, the idea that for instance, okay, Trump
will like to say, no, you're the racist.
So this is to say just, you know, just simply, Uh, no,
you're the fascist, you know.
Pat Byrnes: Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: I think that's it.
I think it's that, simple.
Okay, so, here Rivers has, uh, Hitler.
You wanna read this one for us, Pat?
Pat Byrnes: It's a cold read.
And it's gonna be a really cold read, given its source, but
Daryl Cagle: Okay, well you could do it twice if you want to.
I'll cut it out.
Pat Byrnes: Listen, you know One take, baby.
One take.
That's the way I used to get paid the medium sized bucks.
All we had to do was demonize an identifiable group
through the endless propaganda and public
literally cheer as we arrested them.
It's easy to get the masses to ignore evil when you control the
narrative to sell it as a good thing.
Ditto.
Daryl Cagle: Ditto says Biden as he's holding a piece of paper that
says MAGA problem and the caption reads, history just keeps repeating
and repeating and repeating.
So I guess what Rivers is saying here is that, Biden is demonizing
the MAGA people in the same way that Hitler was demonizing Jews.
Taylor Jones: Well, I think So.
Pat Byrnes: they like to demonize, the MSM, mainstream media, they also
like to point out is owned and run by people of a certain, heritage.
So, again, we're kind of back to the pink triangle problem.
There's an internal conflict in the logic.
Daryl Cagle: I take Taylor's point though, is, they call us
Hitler, so we call them Hitler.
Pat Byrnes: Mm hmm.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
So here's Dick Wright, and he's got the left, who is unattractive and unkempt
and overweight, drinking a beer, and he says, These Jews are a real problem!
And Hitler says, Gas chambers always worked for me!
Taylor Jones: This is a good cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: You think so?
The left is saying these Jews are a real problem.
I assume that's referring to support for the Palestinians?
Taylor Jones: Well, that's, that's where it gets complicated as I see it, the far
left and the far right eventually make a circle and just about touch each other.
Pat Byrnes: They touch butts.
Taylor Jones: Right.
And, uh, part of it is, you will find plenty of anti Semitism on the left.
Now.
Of course, there are many Jews who, for instance, are very, American
Jews who are very skeptical of what's happening in Gaza.
You know, they're, they're uneasy about it.
And the whole notion by some to equate being anti Israel or say if
you're not a hundred percent pro Israel, you're somehow anti Semitic.
And of course that's going way too far.
But, Dick Wright is correct here that there is, there is plenty
of anti Semitism on the left.
And I think some of it probably is due to historical ignorance.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, tell us about this one, Taylor.
I should say this is Trump with a rat nest in his head
and it says, speaking of vermin, and of course, vermin is the
Nazi Hitler language reference that, Trump has been making.
And it's not a word that we really use very much in speaking vocabulary.
Taylor Jones: I was also thinking of New York city with its rat
problem and, with all kinds of rats nests appearing all over the city.
And, Trump is a New Yorker and, uh, and has all that mass of
hair that's mess, messy hair.
So it just seemed like an ideal spot for rodents to thrive.
Daryl Cagle: The, demonizing the people you don't like as
vermin is very Nazi of him.
But, you know, he didn't read Mein Kampf.
And this is another lovely one that we had in a previous podcast from you, Taylor.
And I think you also drew this in 2015, very early Trump Hitler.
And it's a great one.
I'm, I'm, it's a beautiful drawing.
His hair is beautiful.
Taylor Jones: And before everybody started drawing him with small hands,
Pat Byrnes: But wasn't his name.
Allegedly the family name was originally Drumpf.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, that's the other thing, "Drumpf."
Daryl Cagle: So here's Ed Wexler and she's got the MAGA gal, she's
reading a book and she says, Hmm.
Trump told Chief of Staff John Kelly that Hitler did a lot of good things.
That's so like him to always look for the good in folks.
Pat Byrnes: Tender thoughts.
Well, he's a good Christian man.
He's a good
Daryl Cagle: I've forgotten about this.
Was this a quote that you remember?
Taylor Jones: Yes.
Daryl Cagle: You do?
Taylor Jones: Yeah, I mean, the Kelly quote or what she's saying?
Uh, Hitler did a lot of good things.
Hitler did a lot of good things?
Yeah.
You know, there's so, there's so many big lies being propagated, not simply
by Trump and by his adoring fans.
And one of them, of course, is that Biden is the worst president in history and,
and the economy has never been worse.
Pat Byrnes: Those are daily affirmations on the right.
Taylor Jones: And of course, of course, the weak weakness on the world stage.
And, uh, it's all a bunch of baloney.
Daryl Cagle: My son has friends who like Trump and he tells me that they say, Trump
sent me checks, and we never got checks like that from Biden, and they say I can't
get a job, but I could get a job before, and, nobody can afford a house, people do
look back and think things were better, and, regardless of whether that's a real
comparison, that is what a lot of people
Taylor Jones: feel.
the only thing that matters is what you perceive, you know.
Bill Day: I have this idea of really wondering, Daryl, because you run a
syndicate that runs cartoons, but you know that newspapers don't run Trump cartoons.
Very few Trump cartoons, and they they do not run Trump as Hitler cartoons, correct?
Daryl Cagle: Well, they do avoid Hitler references and Ku Klux Klan references,
and they avoid, bodily fluids.
There's, there are things they don't like.
I send all of the cartoonists, uh, uh, a list of which, which cartoons
are, are popular and being reprinted.
And those are actually the majority of the cartoons in that top ten.
And, that, the majority of the reprints.
Uh, but, you know, In the last two years of the Trump administration, we saw that
the cartoonists were very motivated to draw Trump and, the newspapers were
not printing those cartoons to the great frustration of the cartoonists.
You looked at those lists every week with no Trumps in them, and
that was frustrating, but I think now, on this second go round, we're
seeing them print more Trumps.
Um, I think that was more of a fatigue in the last two years.
We'll see if the fatigue sets back in.
Taylor Jones: Oh, Daryl, has anybody, has anybody yet drawn
a cartoon of Hitler peeing?
Daryl Cagle: They don't print peeing, Taylor.
They just don't print peeing.
You know, cartoonists love to draw peeing.
They love to draw spitting and sweating and blood and snot and vomit.
they just love all of that.
those are probably all words that, uh, get us ticked down on, on YouTube.
So I need to take that out.
Bill Day: Well, until we got to the final set of cartoons,
I thought they were excellent.
I certainly, uh, disagreed with, What the right wing was doing.
Daryl Cagle: It's a very serious reciprocity going on, both in the numbers
of Hitler's and the passion for it.
Yeah.
Pat Byrnes: So, my question is, in Germany, I, I, I heard about some
woman who became a German citizen.
And the first thing she did, uh, as a new citizen of modern Germany
was to renounce the Holocaust.
And, and basically renounce that part of Germany's past and to
affirm that, you know, never again.
If this drift toward fascism happens in the U.
S.
There are going to be a lot of broken souls.
There are going to be a lot of, people who are going to find themselves committing to
extreme evil, even as they tell themselves they're good church going people.
And, there's going to be a point at which the fever breaks and they're going to be
like wholly bodily fluid or bodily solid.
What have I done?
Daryl Cagle: How many years you've been saying that, Pat?
Pat Byrnes: Wholly bodily solid?
Daryl Cagle: No, I mean, they're gonna see the light and see how wrong they were.
How many years you've been saying that?
Pat Byrnes: They're not going to see it anytime soon.
They're not going to see it, but things are getting darker and darker
and the commitment is getting deeper and deeper and people are saying more
and more things that are actually in favor of killing their neighbor.
You know, we're getting ready to visit.
Well, you know, we settle these things with guns
Bill Day: in Florida.
There is a movement led by Ron DeSantis is to deny that slavery was a real problem.
In fact, he's been having books removed from public libraries and from school
libraries that mentioned slavery.
You know, he's denying history, . he also said that slavery wasn't all
that bad because slavery taught the slaves certain skills that they were
able to use once they were free.
So it wasn't that bad.
So, that's what's going on in Florida.
Taylor Jones: Daryl, I'd like to, can I make two comments?
One, something I've been saying for a long time, and the other just a
comment about the cartoons today.
The first is that, I don't accuse people of being racist because my feeling is
if I want to accuse somebody of being a racist, I got to look in the mirror first.
It's not like I haven't had racist thoughts or made racist comments or
laughed at a racist joke in my life.
But saying that, I also think that American politics and
history are all about race.
That's all they've ever been about.
and what's happening now is just further reflection of that.
And I think Trump's movement is all about race.
Uh, and, uh, the other, the other thing I would say is that you might want to,
you might want to cut this part out.
I'm not going to say anything bad, I'm not going to discuss bodily functions,
but I think, I think this is, this is my fourth or fifth podcast with you.
And it seems to me this is, these cartoons, it's been hard, it's been a
little bit hard for us to comment on some of these cartoons about Hitler and Hitler
and making associations with Trump because the cartoons kind of say it all and it's,
I, I kind of think in some ways we've sort of been fumbling a bit for words.
I, I know I have been, in a way that it's been easier some ways to comment on some
of the other cartoons in other podcasts.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, let me say something in defense of Trump.
I think that he kind of becomes like a no pest strip where all the things we don't
like kind of stick to him and you can find a reason for why they're sticking to him.
And, That's a little bit unfair.
I mean, there's implications that he's anti semitic.
I don't, I don't think there's any of that there, you know,
Ivanka and Jared are Jewish.
He's from New York.
I mean, not everything we don't like is Trump.
But, enough to make us, uh, busy cartoonists.
Pat Byrnes: There's a lot not to like there and I got to take issue with one
teeny little thing that Taylor said that it's There's this this strain that says
it's all about race I think it's a little bit more we got to give some credit
that there's more diversity than that.
It's also about misogyny That's been a little bit more subdued.
But but They're multifaceted they're,
Taylor Jones: at least, they're too, they're too fast.
Well, of course, the misogyny isn't, isn't, isn't unique to
the United States, of course.
Uh,
Pat Byrnes: but, uh Okay, all right, all right, fine.
Yeah, well, the unique thing, then, will be, will be
Taylor Jones: And by the way, race has done so much for American culture.
there's probably been no greater marriage, cultural marriage than
between the, Western canon of music and the African voice.
You know, in terms of what it's done for the world in terms of culture, there's
so much richness that have come and it's all on display in the United States.
And that's something we can be extremely proud of.
but it's all that it's, it's through that prism of race.
All of it.
My feeling.
Pat Byrnes: And you talked about the, the, the 1960s and I, that's when I
was growing up in Detroit it was right.
There was Motown.
Motown was the hope, the hope of a possible future.
And it was the most hopeful cultural movement in my lifetime, as evidenced
by the fact that you get anybody together for the most important event
in their lives, and they got the band playing, and what gets everybody out
on the dance floor at every single wedding reception, but Motown.
If we could reconnect with that part of our soul and realize that this mix, which
we used to proudly call a melting pot, is the source of our cultural richness,
and that's what makes America great.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's there.
It's there.
It isn't gone.
You know, it's just, uh, uh, just bring it back, baby.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, gentlemen, that's it for Trump Hitler.
And everybody remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you're
watching or listening today.
Come back again, go to Cagle.Com and subscribe and see all of the cartoons.
And, thank you so much for being here with us, gentlemen.
Thank you.
Taylor Jones: Great.
Good to see y'all.
Good to meet.
Good to meet you, Bill and
Pat.
Daryl Cagle: Nice to meet you too.
See you guys next time.
We'll have you back.
Terrific.
See y'all.