Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast where
we're all about political cartoons.
Today we're going to talk about Trump and, Joe Biden, we have, three great
conservative cartoonists, Michael Ramirez, Rivers, and Gary McCoy I wanted to
start off with one of my own cartoons.
This is how I see the presidential race right now.
Trump's got a lot of baggage, but that's not keeping him from
running out in front of Biden.
I chose not to put, labels on all these bags.
I first thought about putting, the names of the lawsuits and things on
the bags, but, sissy cartoonists use labels, so I, I avoided that.
Uh, this is how it's looking.
And there's a caricature of Biden that has been growing with constant
reinforcement from the conservatives.
that is, just not the way that I think Biden is or that I see Biden.
He's, he's depicted as, demented as a puppet of powers on the left.
Probably Obama.
he's, seen as a crime figure who's on the take and taking bribes.
And, to me, it just sounds like absolute nonsense.
but that's where the conservative cartoonists live in their
bubble, in their silo.
And, we will explore some of that tonight conservatives tend
to not draw Trump very often.
They just like to draw Biden.
Whereas also, you know, you can say that the liberal cartoonists like to draw
Trump and don't draw a whole lot of Biden.
But I don't think that's quite as true.
Um, here are a few examples of cartoons from my buddy Dick Wright,
who is a great old time cartoonist who's worked for just a gazillion
newspapers, won a gazillion awards.
And, he just, captures this different Biden from this different world.
So I'm gonna talk to the conservative cartoonists about that and, see
if we can figure out what the heck is going on with this, alternative
reality, Earth 2 that they live in.
I hope you enjoy this, this is a, extra good podcast, and I'd like to start off
introducing Gary McCoy, our brilliant conservative cartoonist who's won a ton
of awards, including ten silver Rubens from the National Cartoonist Society.
Gary draws two comic strips, The Duplex and The Flying McCoy Brothers, and
Rivers, our anonymous brilliant masked conservative cartoonist, and Michael
Ramirez, who's a good old buddy of mine and he's won two Pulitzer Prizes
and he's syndicated to hundreds of newspapers by another syndicate, and he
draws for the Las Vegas Review Journal.
We're going to get going on Michael Ramirez first.
This is a great podcast.
We've got all kinds of alternative reality going on So enjoy it.
And here is Michael talking about his cartoons.
Here you've got the wrong stuff from another movie cartoon with Biden
walking away from his crashed plane.
Excellent cartoon.
Michael Ramirez: And that, that's a direct quote from the president himself.
Daryl Cagle: He says, there is no federal solution to COVID.
Here you've got a Bloody Hands cartoon with Biden and Saudi Arabia.
You know, we have, we have an issue.
Um, I track what editors print.
Put blood in a cartoon and it just doesn't get printed.
I think that's a frustration for a lot of, uh, cartoonists.
Michael Ramirez: say, as a capitalist pig, that's okay.
Like, I'm not doing these cartoons to be famous or to be rich.
I'm doing them because there are issues that need to be dealt with,
and the American public has to be reminded of what's at stake.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got the White House with a big sign saying Free Stuff
atop the 32 trillion dollar national debt.
debt mountain.
And the White House is saying, how could they downgrade our credit rating?
Well, they're downgrading it because it's about to tip over
off the top of the mountain.
And, uh, it's an excellent metaphor.
It looks good.
Michael Ramirez: It is inconceivable how much money we owe.
It is.
I just can't even believe it.
When you think of the budget.
You know, prior to Biden, it increased 2 trillion.
Remember, it was, you know, a decade ago when we were just reaching the trillion
dollar mark on budgets to begin with.
And now you get a budget that's almost 6 trillion, or a little
bit more than 6 trillion.
Daryl Cagle: And this is a cartoon that works for every
administration in the White House.
I
Michael Ramirez: mean, look, another Trump thing, when Obama was president, one of
the things I focused on was spending.
Of course, I focus on that for every administration.
But his largest deficit when he was president was 1.
3 trillion.
Donald Trump's deficit before COVID was 1.
3 trillion.
It just has to stop.
The spending is ridiculous.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got, uh, Air Force One dragging a welcome
banner and they say, I don't know what is behind the surge of immigration.
Of course, that is the welcome and, uh, couldn't be more clear.
Good cartoon.
So here we have the rodeo with the Biden tied to the bucking bull's abdomen
with a big knot that he can't untie.
And there's no way he's going to get out of inflation.
And this is an excellent cartoon, Michael.
Thanks.
Michael Ramirez: It's just about the bull the president is unleashing on
the American public on inflation.
Daryl Cagle: Well, he is certainly responsible for all the junk that
goes on while he's president, whether he did it or not.
So I, I don't, I don't care where the blame falls.
I'll blame him as well.
Michael Ramirez: I blame you, Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: Well, thank you, Michael.
This is a funny one.
You've got the big wind power windmill on the green and woke jet
plane, which is unlikely to run very well with that power source.
We're losing our focus.
It's kind of ironic that we went from propeller planes to jet airplanes,
and now we're kind of de evolving.
Rivers: The problem with a cartoon like that is that you're going to give people
ideas.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, here you've got the helicopter flying over Kabul and
it says, what did we leave behind?
Our credibility as they're flying away from the building, taking
the last people to escape out.
They did lose their credibility and that was quite a mess that
Biden has responsibility for.
I, I agree.
Rivers: Gosh, I love that cartoon.
I love the way that I know we're not supposed to be critiquing work here, and
I'm not really critiquing, but I'm just
Daryl Cagle: No, you're welcome to critique.
I We don't have rules here.
I just come back and edit out everything that's inappropriate.
Michael Ramirez: So go ahead.
Rivers: I just love the way you did the background with
almost like a watercolor effect.
It's not You don't do that a lot, but in this case it's very
effective and very beautiful.
I love that.
Michael Ramirez: And, you know, the underlying context of this, because I've
been to Bagram, you know, I went on these USO tours, and Bagram, when you, when
you look at it, it's fairly isolated.
It was a, um, airport with two runways.
The strategic value of that place, when you think you've got a, a nuclear
China, a nuclear Russia, a nuclear Pakistan, soon to be nuclear Iran,
the strategic value of having a base there, which the Pentagon said they
could have easily defended with 2, 500 troops, the strategic value is enormous.
That China is, uh, is shelling out trillions of dollars to try to set up
these kinds of strategic bases all around.
Uh, I think it was a, once again, reflective of bad
policy decisions by Biden.
Actually, Trump started it in December, but the Biden administration, the one
who followed through, setting up an artificial deadline that made no sense.
And just a catastrophe that showed weakness to the world.
I think we're suffering the consequences of it.
Still today.
Daryl Cagle: Michael mentions the USO tour.
The editorial cartoonists and other cartoonists have been going on a
lot of USO tours over the years.
And it's a very nice thing to do.
I did one with Michael in Bahrain.
And, uh, a wonderful experience.
And, great to meet with all the troops and do drawing for them.
Michael Ramirez: I went to Afghanistan and Iraq.
During the war.
And, uh, you know, I felt more in danger when I walked
through the newsroom at the L.
A.
Times than I did.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here you've got, Biden.
He says age means nothing as he's backed by a giant President Kamala sign.
I think one thing that, liberals and conservatives can have in
common is not liking Kamala.
Michael Ramirez: I think that's most of the nation.
I think that's that's sure the shared sentiment of that.
And I think it's something that she brought on herself, frankly.
Daryl Cagle: Well, for different reasons, I think.
So, here you've got, uh, Kitchen Conversation, and the guy doing
the crossword puzzle says What's a five letter word with an I in it
for virus destroying our economy?
And the lady says Biden.
That's cute.
A name calling cartoon.
I like name calling cartoons.
Michael Ramirez: I can't believe you just called the cartoon cute.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, come on.
This is cute, Michael.
Oh, she does have a lot of knives behind her.
Those are very threatening looking knives.
Michael Ramirez: That's like a knife in the heart for a political cartoonist.
That's so cute.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, cute?
Yeah.
What about Steve Sack?
Michael Ramirez: Well, Steve is kind of cute.
I wouldn't date him, but
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here you've got a huge wave of migrant surge, and
it is just a beautifully drawn wave.
And, uh, at the Border Patrol lifeguard station, they're saying, President Biden
sent us to help with the paperwork.
The paperwork is not going to stop that wave, and that is a great looking cartoon.
There's a tradition among editorial cartoonists for drawing giant waves.
Excellent giant wave here.
Thank you.
When we don't say much about a cartoon, that cartoon gets edited out.
Anything to say for this cartoon?
Rivers: I was just gonna, let's see, I was gonna just comment again on
the, on the drawing, but I noticed it's almost like a little bit of a
Japanese influence in the wave there.
Michael Ramirez: You know what, as a surfer, it's what I
used to look at every morning.
But the underlying theme, though, is important.
This giant wave of immigrants coming into the country.
And, you know, I think what makes America extraordinary is the fact that we've
taken all these cultures and mixed them together and made it uniquely American.
But there's a, we have to make a delineation between
legal and illegal immigration.
My grandfather came from Agua Caliente, Mexico.
My grandmother is from Spain.
He was a legal immigrant.
My mother was a legal immigrant.
from Japan.
More than just securing our borders as an immigration crisis, it's
also a national security issue.
There are many people that want to do America harm.
We're seeing that today.
Allowing people in without knowing who they are and why they're
here is dangerous for America.
And when you have these nations that have surrogate surrogates of evil, and
they're using fissionable material.
What's going to happen when a dirty bomb goes off in an American city
where it's uninhabitable for 75 years?
These are issues of national security.
Daryl Cagle: And we've got Biden building a wall now.
So I didn't get this one, Michael.
You've got Biden holding a 400, 000 missile, chasing down a little girl.
Michael Ramirez: Yeah.
I had so many variations.
And this is when they were shooting down the Chinese balloon.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, and she's got a balloon and he's going after any balloon.
Michael Ramirez: With a missile that costs almost a million bucks each.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I just, I didn't have any context.
Yeah, you'd think they could use a pin.
Michael Ramirez: You know, I had my, my, the cartoon that I like better,
but we were focusing on Biden, so I had to throw in a Biden cartoon, was
that I had Secretary Austin sitting there with a Chinese balloon floating
over his head, and he's saying, um, and there's a jet about to approach it, and
he's saying, we couldn't shoot it down over, until it got over vacant space.
The pilot's going, how about now?
Daryl Cagle: You've got the NASCAR crashing and breaking up into little
parts and inside the NASCAR the Democrat donkey says funny it doesn't feel
like we're on the right path and you know this is just a drawing that is
so much fun that it's the drawing that makes the cartoon and it's just lovely
Michael Ramirez: you know and it's one of those things Readers can
relate to when Biden says we're on the right path, but you feel like the
wheels are coming off the government.
It's the perfect Illustration of that idea.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, there's Biden in there.
He's the prez.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
He's a guy driving And here you have a great graphic cartoon with all the issues
behind Biden and he calls Republicans Extremists and makes the point and
Michael Ramirez: you know, they like to call conservatives and Republicans
extremists But when you look at the extreme extreme agenda of this
administration, these progressive groups.
I give speeches around the country to all kinds of groups.
There's far more things that unite us than divide us.
And the issues that people don't like, they don't like this wokeism.
They don't want to defund the police.
All these extreme things that the fringe on the left is doing and
advocating that is not representative.
of the country as a whole.
Well, we
Daryl Cagle: don't have a lot of moderation among the people
on the left or the right.
Michael Ramirez: I think, I think there is more moderation.
The problem is, people rely on social media to sort of calibrate
what people support and they don't.
And it's just an echo chamber of nonsense to the most extreme
fringe of the political spectrum.
And we should be looking at more of these things.
And I always tell people, look, this conservative
revolution is already underway.
They've been waiting for the last 12 years to get a Reagan conservative because
nobody wants these things that these extreme fringe parties are offering.
They want to get back to the fundamentals that made America great.
Daryl Cagle: They want that, but we don't seem to have a system that
facilitates those people getting elected.
Michael Ramirez: Well, that's a, you know, that's a result of gerrymandering
and both parties insulating their representatives from accountability.
Gary McCoy: Can I jump in?
Oh, sure.
Okay.
This is a great cartoon.
It's like Mike said, everything being kind of so extreme now and so divisive
and the, the extremes on each end of the spectrum are, are like so much more
amplified than they have ever been.
Why do you think that editors don't want the controversial?
content.
I mean, probably couldn't answer really for them, but to me, seems like they would
want something that kind of represents.
I mean, not the extreme right or left viewpoint, but I mean,
there's nothing right now in this country that is, you know, vanilla.
Everything is Extreme on both sides.
So I'm just wondering why do you think the editors at the papers and other places?
Daryl Cagle: Well, I'll take a shot at that people dislike cartoons They
disagree with much more than they like cartoons They agree with and so if
you want to be risk averse you don't give them anything to disagree with
Michael Ramirez: but let me qualify that I'm not sure that's true.
I think you hear from people that have disagreement with cartoons,
much more than you hear from people that want to praise your cartoons.
True.
Because of the nature of politics.
Daryl Cagle: Right.
Well, one, one person calling the paper to cancel their subscription has an effect
now that it didn't have in years past.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
I think that's it.
Michael Ramirez: It's a unfortunate byproduct of the tenuous
nature of journalism today.
Daryl Cagle: Anyway, this is lovely red ink, Michael.
Thank you.
And Air Force One, Roger, it looks like Biden is running again as
they install the stairlift on the stairs up to the Air Force One.
He is, uh,
Michael Ramirez: You know what?
I make fun of Biden's age all the time.
But frankly, he's sort of had this case of dementia since he got into politics.
This is nothing new.
He's been misreading things.
He's been on the wrong side of every major issue through his entire political career.
Daryl Cagle: I think this is one of those, uh, right and left bubble
things because in my left bubble, uh, I don't see him as having dementia.
I flip on Fox News and I hear about how he has all these mental impairments and, um,
Michael Ramirez: Well, that's my point.
I think that's a bubble issue.
I'm not saying that he's that he has dementia, although there
are many things that he's doing that's that makes me wonder.
Now having having a senior parent and watching them go through the process
where they're just completely fine until the last few years of the life where it
suddenly just changes very dramatically.
That definitely has to be an issue in the upcoming election.
And now I'm, I'm, I'm opposed to term limits.
I'm opposed to age limits.
I think we already have those like in Federalist 50, I
think it was Federalist 4.
We're having more frequent elections.
Is the cure for that, so that people are informed and they can make these
decisions and then limit their terms.
But you know, the
Daryl Cagle: point You quote Federalist papers like I quote Star Trek episodes.
Michael Ramirez: Your quotes are a lot more informative than mine, obviously.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, here you've got Biden crashing his student loan
forgiveness car into the Constitution.
How is that crashing into the Constitution?
I mean, I get that we should be responsible for our own
choices to go into debt.
I paid for college for both of my kids and the idea that if I hadn't done that
it could be forgiven would make me feel like I'm kind of a fool for doing that
and encourage bad behavior in the future.
But how is that a constitutional issue?
Michael Ramirez: See, this is where you need to read less Star
Trek and more Federalist paper.
It's a constitutional issue because the power of the purse is
within the second branch of our government, which is the Congress.
Congress is the one who gets to allocate spending, not the president.
The president cannot, by decree, just absolve people from their debt.
And frankly, I
Daryl Cagle: think this is when the.
Court found that he didn't have the power to do that, and yet this was a response
to the court knocking his plan down.
Michael Ramirez: Because it's within the purview of the Congress.
If they want to do that, then let them face the electorate
once they've done that.
And all the people that actually paid back their student loans, all
those people that didn't have any student loans, can respond and form.
Daryl Cagle: I take your point.
And this is illegal immigration about to form one of those big waves, like
you just drew on the other cartoon.
President Biden says, take it down, referring to the title 42 dam.
Very good.
I kind
Michael Ramirez: of, I kind of did that because, uh, obviously I work
for the Review Journal in Las Vegas.
So I thought the Hoover dam would be a good metaphor for it.
But it really, when you think about the tides of people, this thing is
holding back the sheer volume of people.
The reason why we designed our immigration system the way
it was and not for economics.
But, uh, you know, escape tyranny.
We have a legal immigration process that allows these people
to apply in coming to the country.
But if you reward bad behavior, all it does is it stimulates more bad behavior.
Daryl Cagle: Let me compliment the Review Journal because
we love the Review Journal.
They subscribe to Cagle Cartoons and, they're one of just a handful
of papers that have a full time editorial cartoonist left now.
And, it says a lot for them.
You know it.
They last till the end like this.
Michael Ramirez: It's a great newspaper, too.
We're one of the few newspapers that's actually adding content and adding stuff.
Daryl Cagle: I've got to say, too, when you pick it up on the newsstand,
it feels like it's got some substance rather than some of these other things
that have like three or four pages.
Michael Ramirez: In fact, comparing it to the L.
A.
Times where I was before, there's no, it's
Daryl Cagle: Boy, the L.
A.
Times has really gotten thin.
So, Michael, here you've got Biden talking to the U.
N.
and he says I like the marble on this cartoon, and he says
America is ever then better.
Uh, that's another, uh, dementia cartoon, I think.
Rivers: It sounds
like me on my
Michael Ramirez: good days.
Daryl Cagle: sO here you got the editorial department tap tap tapping
on their computer typing in, uh, The far right driven GOP wants to impeach
Biden even though there's never been any sign of wrongdoing to point to.
And Biden holds his for sale sign up in front of him.
None whatsoever.
Yeah, this is another bubble cartoon because I don't s See
what is so obvious to all of you.
Of course, there's Sleazy Hunter, but, uh, there's no money trail.
Rivers: Well, as again, you know, I disagree with you.
I think that there's definitely some, there's, there seems
to be, The gun is smoking.
The question is, can we tie it to, uh, Joe?
And so far, the GOP has been somewhat Um, slow on that.
Daryl Cagle: Because it must be there.
Okay, so here you've got, uh, Super Joe, who's almost a Batman, and
he says, our superhero noticed a subtle change to the signal from the
Democrat party, which is not a bat signal, but rather a step down signal.
And if he were to step down, he would fall off the top of that building.
Rivers: Right, that, that was, that was drawn right after, uh, I think
there was a poll release that said that 64 percent of Democrats, uh, wanted
Biden to step down or not run in 2024.
So
Daryl Cagle: here Biden is taking a phone call where someone says, uh,
"Hello, is this Pedo, Pete - snicker?"
And Biden says, "How many times have I told you that my
name to you is Dad, Hunter?"
So why is he motivated to say Pedo, Pete?
Is that Biden is like a pedophile for touching people, including young people.
Rivers: Well, that's interesting 'cause I, I'm kind of blown away
that you don't know the story that.
Hunter Biden, uh, alluded to his dad as being Pedo Pete,
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, I, I, I don't know.
That's, that's a bubble story, I guess.
Why is he Pedo Pete?
Rivers: Well, that was his name.
That was his pet name for him, Pedo Pete.
So, um, I'm kind of surprised that this story didn't make it into your bubble.
Daryl Cagle: Here you got Biden chopping down a big tree.
He says, I cannot tell a lie, Putin did it.
So, is this part of your, not supporting Ukraine in the respect
that he's blaming things on Putin?
Rivers: Well, I would, yeah, I would suggest that a lot of what, um,
Biden does is, is blame anything on anyone else but himself, right?
So And
Daryl Cagle: Putin is just somebody who So if it's not Trump, it's Putin.
Okay.
And here you've got Biden Uncle Sam walking away from a nuclear explosion.
He says, Because provoking a third world war with nuclear powers
is way better than mean tweets.
I didn't quite, quite get this either.
So is this support for Ukraine is creating the risk of a nuclear war?
And that's better than Trump's mean tweets?
I'm not quite getting it.
Michael Ramirez: Well, that seems Pretty straightforward, actually.
Yeah, that's The comparison that he's making is he's saying that, uh, and
I'm not saying I, I agree with the political context of the cartoon,
but it was pretty straightforward.
He's saying mean tweets don't compare to getting us into a third world war.
It's a very straightforward cartoon image.
Um, I don't, I don't agree with the sentiment because I'm, I'm a
Ukraine supporter, but I think the cartoon is actually Pretty good.
Rivers: So there's the alternative universe theory, Daryl, in which,
you know, if Donald Trump had won in 2020, would we be where we are right
now in terms of inflation, in terms of the economy, in terms of war with
Ukraine or war with Russia, in terms of what just happened with Hamas?
You know, you can speculate, but there's a lot of people.
And I think that I'm kind of one of them that believes that Trump
would have handled it differently.
And we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are today.
Daryl Cagle: And here.
Presuming that the way he would have handled it differently would
have been a safer world rather than a more dangerous world.
Rivers: Well, I think, I think Putin respected Trump.
Uh, he may not have liked him, but I think that there was a crazy aspect to Trump,
similar to, there was this crazy aspect to Reagan, if you will, in that our enemies
didn't know what he was going to do.
And this is, this was true for Trump.
They did not know how crazy is this guy.
And so if Trump would, were to say to Putin, Hey, if you do this, there will be.
repercussions beyond your capability of, of, you know, understanding, then I
think, I think Putin would have perhaps reconsidered, but Putin sensed weakness.
And definitely that that weakness was put forward during the,
the Afghanistan withdrawal.
There was definitely our enemies took note of that.
And, and So surely Putin did.
So the question is, would Putin have invaded Ukraine?
Would Hamas and Iran feel so emboldened as they do today to confront the US
if not for Biden being in office?
Certainly, like I said, I think I'm a little bit with Michael, um, but.
But I think I'm probably even to the more extreme right than Michael in the
sense that I actually don't mind Trump.
I don't love him, but at the same time, I see him a far greater force for good
than the guy who's currently there.
And I would also argue some of the things.
Um, some of the consequences of Trump being in office, that being many,
um, judges being placed in office that are more right wing, that has
had a huge effect, including in the Supreme Court, where we have for
the first time, the Roe versus Wade controversy kind of put to rest.
So, or not to rest, obviously, but
you know what I mean.
Daryl Cagle: Ignited
Rivers: Yeah,
ignited.
But but definitely there were consequences to Trump being in
office that a lot of right wingers like myself would agree to that.
We kind of like, um, like him or not.
Okay,
Michael Ramirez: well, I have to say, let me just say one thing about that.
While you might disagree with the point that Rivers is making in that cartoon.
I think the cartoon is very clear and very powerful, and the pronouncement
that, that, uh, the danger from a Biden administration is far larger than,
you know, Trump's not, again, I, I, I support Ukraine, and I disagree, but
the cartoon, I think, does what it does.
Political cartoons ought to do, and I think it does it powerfully.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here you've got the two prisoners, and they're in their cell.
One says, So there I was about to testify against Joe Biden as a whistleblower, and
the next thing I know, I'm sitting here.
So these guys are suffering from the weaponization of law enforcement.
Rivers: Right.
So I do believe that there is one specific whistleblower and I forget his name, but
he was being indicted for something at the same time as he was being a whistleblower.
So again, you know, the timing, you know, he should have been protected
as a whistleblower, but it seems that the DOJ had other ideas.
Daryl Cagle: This is interesting.
You've got Uncle Sam digging through, uh, at the edge of the
cliff about to fall down from the cliff, and Biden says, Keep digging.
You'll eventually hit pay dirt, and then it's nothing but blue skies after that.
Rivers: So it's a bit of a gag.
Yeah, it's a bit of a gag.
You know, it's, it's the, you know, U.
S.
's kind of, Digging its way into deeper and deeper issues and troubles, uh, and,
uh, yeah, we're not going the right way.
Daryl Cagle: So, Gary, we are up to you.
Yay.
I know we're pushing up against your deadline.
Gary McCoy: Yeah, so, uh, especially since I don't like my drawing, and, uh, I'm not
the draftsman that Rivers and Mike are, so what I, what I do is I try to make up.
For that, by being a better citizen and, uh,
Daryl Cagle: you're, you're a better citizen.
Gary McCoy: A model partner to my community.
Okay.
So anyway, I hate this drawing, but let's go through it, sir.
Daryl Cagle: So you've got Biden at the desk and two secret service
guys are getting bit by his, his.
Dog that famously bites and he says, sir, nevermind the border.
We'd like to request that a wall be built around Commander.
Gary McCoy: Just a gag cartoon.
Of course.
That's just, that's kind of my, my thing.
And plus I try to keep in mind what you say, Daryl, about the editors.
And
Daryl Cagle: I don't want to be in the position of telling
you to not have opinions.
I mean, cartoonists should have opinions and we should be twisting
the arms of editors to print opinions.
Gary McCoy: I do.
I know.
And you know, I wish I could, you know, Mike and Rivers hit the topic so hard,
and I do in some of these cartoons perhaps, but, you know, when, when you
can cross reference two topical things going on at the same time, it's, it's
probably an easy go to for cartoonists.
Michael Ramirez: And you know what?
I think, I think that, uh, I think that cartoon hilariously brings
up the context of the border wall and another event that's happening
in the news at the same time.
So he's saying that Biden has done nothing with the border wall.
Could he at least build a border around, Commander.
I think, you know, one thing I loved about Ronald Reagan was his sense of humor.
And humor is a very, very, very powerful weapon to reach a much larger
audience with your weapon, with your, with your, uh, with your message.
And I think one thing I love about Gary's cartoons, and I don't see them
a lot, Gary, but when I do, they always make me laugh out loud, is that we
want to be the catalyst for thought.
We want to bring certain issues that I think very, very
important issues to our society.
To the viewer's attention.
And, uh, you know, Gary does it very well with his with his sense of humor.
And I actually like your drawings, Gary.
I think they're
wonderfully creative
Daryl Cagle: I like your drawings too, Gary.
So you've got Biden with his feet glued to the floor and, uh, his advisor is saying,
sir, it's what environmental protesters do, but gluing your feet to the floor,
isn't the best way to hold on to office.
Gary McCoy: Obviously I'm just like, again, cross referencing
things that were topical.
And, uh, I think this is, was around the time when the, uh, the Burning
Man thing was going on out in the desert and all those people were
blocking people wanting to get through.
And, uh, so people just got so, so fed up, they just started
dragging them off the road.
And it's kind of what I would imagine me doing also.
Michael Ramirez: Frankly, it may be the only way that Biden holds on to office.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Well, he's holding on to other things here.
And, uh, she says, hands off my, uh, expletive.
And, uh, the Secret Service guys say he's not just a gun grabber.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
Sometimes I wish I wasn't.
Joe Biden.
Daryl Cagle: Because you can get away with grabbing?
Gary McCoy: Heh.
Although, you know, my wife probably wouldn't be too
thrilled about it, but, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, you've got the military before Biden.
The drill sergeant says, drop and give me 20!
And after, drop and give me the name of a Disney princess or a preferred pronoun.
All right.
Uh, here you've got Biden talking to the kid who's thinking Ku Klux Klan
hood, and, uh, Biden says, Don't worry, if you can't get into Harvard because
of the Supreme Court ruling against affirmative action, I'll give you a
job holding a lantern in my front yard.
So, is that funny just because you're calling him a bigot?
Gary McCoy: Uh, to me, it's not so much funny as It's just pointing
out Biden's, you know, veil.
Daryl Cagle: He has had some gaffes that got him into some trouble.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
And you had told me subsequent to this cartoon, Daryl, about how Klans,
you know, Klansmen hoods, you know, won't make it into, the paper.
So this one probably never ran, I guess.
Daryl Cagle: Well, there's always somebody to print anything, but
Klan hoods are like, swastikas.
Editors don't like them and the cartoons just don't get picked up.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
And Biden just had another recent gaffe.
I forget who it was.
I don't know if it might have been lj, lcoolj, jl.
But, uh, then they said, you know, this boy, the guy's
like 50 something years old.
One of his, you know, reoccurring kind of racial faux pas that, that doesn't
really get much, uh, much media attention.
Michael Ramirez: So Daryl, do you have like a, do you release a list of metaphors
that your cartoonists shouldn't use?
Like on a monthly basis?
Daryl Cagle: I don't want to tell the cartoonists what they should or shouldn't.
But I do tell them what gets printed and doesn't get printed.
I send the cartoonists pretty much weekly, uh, all the cartoons, the
top 10 cartoons that were reprinted that week that editors chose.
And the top 10 cartoons from us tend to be equal in the amount of papers
that print them to all the rest of the cartoons, like another hundred cartoons.
Michael Ramirez: I guess my, my next question would be, do you
guys listen to what Daryl says?
No, you don't have to answer that.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I can, I can tell you.
I don't get much, too much people listening to that, but I'm
Gary McCoy: sorry, what were you saying?
Well, I, I know, I, I've changed, I mean since you've sent those emails out, Daryl.
I, I have changed somewhat in what I submit because, you know, I
don't want to submit a ton of stuff that's never going to get picked up.
So, and, and
Daryl Cagle: there is a part of being an effective cartoonist is
getting people to see your cartoons.
Absolutely.
And, uh, if you can, if you can make a compromise, like saying, well, I don't
really need blood in this cartoon.
It does the same thing without blood and then get it printed
by twice as many places.
That's not a
bad compromise to make
Michael Ramirez: I do agree with that.
I mean, I don't do controversial cartoons for the sake of controversy,
just like I don't do humorous cartoons just for the sake of humor.
And there are certain subjects that you just don't want to do because the
controversy surrounding the placement within the cartoon will overshadow
the point you're trying to make.
Because obviously we're trying to make a point.
Daryl Cagle: One problem that we have is anti semitic cartoons, particularly
from around the world, and I've tried to lay down some rules for the
international cartoonists to follow to make their cartoons not anti semitic,
and I do kill the anti semitic cartoons.
Um, there are some basic rules that I think are helpful, just as you
wouldn't draw sexually explicit things in an editorial cartoon and
expect it to be printed, likewise
some of these things.
that are natural go to kind of things that pop into artists minds, like
drawing Israelis as Nazis persecuting the Palestinians in Gaza, Auschwitz.
Uh, we don't accept that, and we need to explain to the cartoonists that Uh,
and, you know, there's a range of those things, from slight to, uh, heavy.
And cartoonists should know that some things cross the line, and
some things are inappropriate, and some things we'll tolerate, but they
simply mean your cartoon's not gonna get printed, and that's another way
of being an ineffective cartoonist.
Michael Ramirez: You know, I'm a big believer in freedom of speech,
that people can say and do anything.
It does not give you the freedom.
To be insulated from the consequences of what you do.
Yes.
I'm sure that, uh, that Gary and Rivers are like me.
We think about our audience and how, how the, uh, the cartoon is going to
be read out there by our readership.
And, uh, you know, I don't want to offend anybody.
Just to make a point.
The point is the most important thing.
I mean, I always think of political cartoons like a Super Bowl ad.
You've got five seconds to catch their attention, five seconds to make the pitch.
But instead of selling a product or selling ideas, if you offend their
sensibilities with something that really doesn't have much to do with
the content of your point, then you lose the opportunity to make the sale.
Gary McCoy: That's a good point.
Daryl Cagle: And, uh, you can judge how much you want to offend.
I recall, uh, one of your cartoons when you were on our Cagle.com site, you
drew a dead fetus in an electric chair.
And we got more angry mail for that than I think any cartoon
we've ever had on Cagle.com.
People were just outraged.
But, you know, we, we ran it and I'm not sure that you would have
been disappointed with the outrage.
Michael Ramirez: Well, I don't, I don't recall that cartoon.
I've been picketed by everybody.
Sometimes at the same time, I managed to offend everybody at some time,
but you know, it's sort of like why I would never use Muhammad in
a cartoon because the controversy that's surrounding the image would
overshadow any point that I'm making.
So I have a tendency to try to sidestep this, but I'm not afraid to like the fist
bump cartoon, like the cartoon that I just did on Hamas with the bloody teddy bear.
Sometimes you have to, to get right up to the edge of the
limit to make a powerful point.
I think that's worth it.
Daryl Cagle: Well, if you're going to draw something that's going to be very
offensive to a minority of readers, I think it's worth thinking about
what's the value of being offensive.
And can I say this in another way?
Michael Ramirez: Right.
And, and let me, let me.
say that I'm not trying to be offensive.
Maybe shocking to some people, but, uh, you know, politics is an emotional thing.
You know, when people write me hate mail and stuff, I like it.
They're like the medals that you get in a battle.
But you're not doing it to offend people.
You're trying to convince them.
And, you know, I'm not drawing offensive cartoons.
I'm drawing powerful cartoons sometimes.
Daryl Cagle: Well, sometimes there are cartoons that are drawn to be
offensive to show that they can do it.
Michael Ramirez: Yeah, I would discourage that.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Biden and he's standing behind Biden's record,
which looks like a big, Bigfoot.
And he says, the wind is at my back.
And this is a fart coming from this Bigfoot, which lists
some of Biden's problems.
So, explain this cartoon to me, Gary.
Gary McCoy: It's kind of just, you know, self explanatory.
You know, I just basically am playing off the phrase.
The wind is at my back and figured I'd work into one of my
favorite flatulence, um, topics.
So I just ran with it.
I've been doing a lot of fart cartoons in the Duplex and the Flying McCoys
too, for some reason, I don't know.
Michael Ramirez: I think, I think he's saying that Biden's record stinks.
Gary McCoy: Oh yeah, I mean, exactly.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: I don't think I've actually tracked, uh, the performance of farts
in cartoons, but, uh, perhaps I should.
Michael Ramirez: But you're talking about old farts, right?
So are you talking about Biden?
Are you talking about Biden?
Oh,
Daryl Cagle: so here we are with the old fart Biden, and he's got a big
corruption shadow looming behind him.
And another, uh, bubble cartoon, because you certainly don't see this on the left.
Gary McCoy: Well, the big guy obviously is referencing the emails that Hunter
Biden referred to as dad as the big guy.
So just, it's basically the essence of
Daryl Cagle: the cartoon.
That's another bubble thing.
Cause I didn't get that reference.
Oh, okay.
Gary McCoy: Wow.
Michael Ramirez: But you vehemently disagree at the point of view.
So
Daryl Cagle: I mean, everybody should get what's coming to them.
If I see a paper trail, uh, money going to dad, then, uh,
Gary McCoy: That's just the thing, they hid the paper trail so well through a
bunch of these LLCs and like 20 different, you know, shell companies and his daughter
in law getting millions of dollars and his grandkids being in some of these.
It just strains credibility.
You just have to look at it with any logical perspective.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I've just not seen a money trail or any kind
of evidence that points to Dad in the same way that you see it.
Gary McCoy: In a way, I actually, this is going to probably be the only nice
thing I've ever said about Joe Biden.
He obviously loves his kid, and I think anybody who had a son or daughter, a
child struggling with addiction, you know, and if any kind of decent parent would
Would love their child and support them.
But the thing where I separate is they would try to help that child.
They wouldn't allow that child to further go down the spiral of self destruction.
They wouldn't enable that child.
And these are all things that I've seen Joe Biden do with Hunter.
You know, he's just, if you had Joe Biden's means.
And stature if I had a son that had an addiction and a sex addiction and was
trafficking, you know, women possibly across the country for sexual pleasure,
you know, instead of sending the FBI to, you know, to cover for him on a
gun crime, I, I'd send the FBI to get him in a headlock Walk him into a rehab
facility and stand guard at the door and not let him come out until he was,
you know, clean as the driven snow.
I wouldn't allow him to continue to screw up his life.
And that's, that's where I, you know, love is one thing, but enabling someone
who's such a, a train wreck as Joe Biden has done with his son to me is just
the opposite of being a good parent.
That's, that's being a terrible parent, in my book.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it's tough when those sleazy jerk kids grow up into
being an adult and you don't have that kind of control over them and
they just take advantage of whatever opportunities are there for them.
Gary McCoy: Then you don't let them ride on Air Force One, you take away
their, their, you know, what'd Hunter say, you know, I'm, you know, I'm
sick of Dad taking half of what I make like he's done with everybody
in the family or something like that.
I don't know.
Daryl Cagle: So here's Joe's inflation reduction cafe, and
they're wheeling the body of the U.
S.
economy out of the cafe, who I assume just died from the eating in the cafe.
Joe says, Thank you.
Please come again.
Not a cafe that you want to eat in.
Gary McCoy: No, I just thought Joe saying that.
to the, as the guy's being wheeled off to the morgue would be funny.
So,
Daryl Cagle: well, I guess that is funny.
And, here you have Joe driving his, fuel truck of political
hate speech that's flammable.
And, he says, I don't understand.
I gave it everything I got as he leaves the national division burning behind him.
And is this another bubble thing?
Because I don't hear the political hate speech from the left.
Like I hear it from the right.
Gary McCoy: It's coming from Joe Biden himself, his famous.
You know, speech with the Marines flanking him with the red backdrop lights.
And well, he just basically everything he does when he gets, he gets a chance.
He's all, you know, he refers to Donald Trump as, you know, that other guy.
And, you know, my predecessor, there's the lack of respect that comes from
this administration towards the previous one is like unrivaled from
anything I've ever seen in politics.
Daryl Cagle: Unrivaled.
I mean, it seems a lot tamer than what we see on the right.
You
Michael Ramirez: pretty much see it pretty much pronounced
on both sides of the aisle.
Daryl Cagle: Why Joe Biden is called the big guy.
He does big stumbles and big mumbles and big lies.
I've never discussed with my son his foreign business dealings.
I, I get that's where you're coming from.
And I guess this'll be the last one.
You have Joe and the Democrat donkey pledging allegiance to a flag that
looks like a rainbow LGTBQ flag,
Gary McCoy: I think that represents like the, all, all the different.
Identities, you
know.
I just want to say I had a great time.
It's fascinating listening to these guys talk and kind of analyze stuff.
Daryl Cagle: You guys were all very civilized, and we
didn't have much argument.
Gary McCoy: We'll bring another liberal on sometime, Daryl.
Rivers: I was just gonna say, I'm a big fan of both these guys, and
so there's a lot of respect there.
And I really appreciate Michael coming on.
Today, because of course he's outside of the Cagle group, but, uh, just an awesome
cartoonist and it's been great to hear from you today and you're very articulate.
And of course, Gary and I are friends from way back and it's
always good to see my friend, Gary.
Gary McCoy: And same with Mike, Mike and I go way back and yeah,
it's a mutual love thing here.
Michael Ramirez: The McCoy brothers are almost part of my extended family.
It seems like.
I look forward to seeing you without a mask at some point.
I've come from a place in the political spectrum.
I'm probably to the right of both you, although I'm a guy
who will go after everything.
You can vehemently disagree with the politics behind a cartoon and still
love the cartoon or the cartoonist.
You know, I, I don't like to, uh, I don't like to tear down other
people's work, but I'd like to say that politics is a personal thing and
everybody, uh, should be emotional, emotional about, about how they feel.
And, and, uh, just because I don't agree with what's behind the
cartoon, um, it doesn't mean that.
The cartoon is not comprehensible or not a powerful vehicle to make a point of view.
And, you know, I, I like, uh, both these guys are fabulous cartoonists,
and, uh, I'm honored to be on this.
Daryl Cagle: Hey, I love all three of you, and I really appreciate your coming on
Gary McCoy: love all you guys, and see y'all soon.
Okay,
Daryl Cagle: very good.
Well, let me say that everyone should remember to subscribe to
the Caglecast wherever you're watching or listening today.
Please subscribe.
Our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions.
So if you don't see the cartoons, go to Cagle.Com or Apple
Podcasts or YouTube or Spotify.
to see the video podcast rather than just the sound.
And I kind of like Podcruncher.
That's my favorite one, but we're on all the platforms
and thank you for being here.
And Michael, I'm delighted that you came today.
Sounds good.
Thanks a lot.
We'll talk soon.