Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the Caglecast, where we're all
about political cartoons, and today we have three brilliant editorial
cartoonists talking about climate change.
Pat Bagley has been the brilliant cartoonist for the Salt Lake
Tribune in Utah since 1979.
Pat has won a ton of awards, including the Herblock Award, and he's a
shining star in our profession.
Great to have you here, Pat.
Thanks for having me on.
Graeme MacKay is the brilliant cartoonist for the Hamilton Spectator in Ontario,
Canada, and he's won a ton of awards too.
It's great to have you here, Graeme.
Thanks for having me.
Rod Emerson is the brilliant cartoonist for the New Zealand Herald since
2003, and before that he was an Australian cartoonist, and he's won
tons of awards too, including two Australian Stanley Awards for Best
Editorial Cartoonist of the Year.
Great to have you here, Rod.
Rod Emmerson: A treat to be here, Darryl.
Fantastic.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, Pat.
You've got two aliens in space coming down, looking at our burning world,
throwing away their invasion plans because they just wanna watch the world burn and
wanna ask, did you bring the popcorn?
It is quite a show.
Seeing the world burn
Pat Bagley: well, and we're doing it to ourselves.
They, they've got, we just have to sit back and watch.
Daryl Cagle: Yes, we are.
Here you've got another popcorn cartoon.
, popcorn really works in a cartoon.
You've got the farmer in his field of corn.
He's talking on the phone and says, If it doesn't get any hotter,
I think we can save the crop.
And all the popcorn pops.
And he's sitting in a sea of popcorn.
He says it got hotter.
This is a very funny cartoon.
Pat Bagley: This is from 2012.
Daryl Cagle: We've had 11 years of getting hotter since then,
and it really has gotten hotter.
Rod Emmerson: Oh, yes.
Daryl Cagle: Graham!
Graeme MacKay: Yes?
Daryl Cagle: Here you got a couple of guys at the docks, the big ship
is, offloading saplings and the, EU guy says, oh thank goodness you've
arrived with your oil and gas, we're so desperate to end our reliance on Russia.
And, uh, the guy from the ship says, oil and gas, we brought you carbon
offsets, this is Europe, isn't it?
Oh, well that's a disturbing but...
Yeah, real sounding
cartoon.
A bit cheeky.
This was during the whole time when they're, looking for oil and
they're reliant on Russian oil.
And it was kind of funny for us in North America to look at the poor Europeans
who are kind of like the preachy ones.
With climate change, and all of a sudden, they're desperate for the old
fossil fuels, and yeah, let's give them some saplings, let's just show them.
Well, fossil fuels are a short term urgency as the world burns and all the
bad guys are making their money on oil.
It's tough to look past the short term problem to the long term problem.
Rod Emmerson: I don't know if that carbon credits is working either, to be honest.
Daryl Cagle: It does sound kind of crazy, carbon credits to me.
You mean like the cap
Graeme MacKay: and trade kind of thing where they're like switching?
Yeah, and not a lot of transparency.
Rod Emmerson: Yes, well, I, I have serious doubts that the
system is actually working.
There's been a, thorough investigation by Four Corners in
Australia recently into carbon credits trading in Papua New Guinea.
And they discovered that, one area of forest that was, part of
the trading scheme was actually being forested by the locals.
and the whole concept of the trading scheme is for the locals to actually
benefit financially from it, so they don't actually cut down trees.
And here they were in the middle of a, um, carbon credits forest with the sound
of chainsaws humming in the background.
Daryl Cagle: That's crazy.
I remember all the complaints the conservatives had about, Al Gore flying
on the private jets and Al Gore's answer was, But I buy these carbon offsets.
And, uh, that just is not very satisfying as an explanation.
No, it doesn't
Rod Emmerson: work, does it?
Graeme MacKay: No, but it makes really great ridicule though, because you
see these rich people jet to these COP conferences and things like
that and, the, the hypocrisy even for those of us who really believe
that there's a climate crisis.
I mean, you think it's the natural stuff for the, the right wingers
Daryl Cagle: Graeme, here's another one from you.
You've got, the world burning as a s'more, a s'more of apathy
and fossil fuel reliance.
This is really very funny.
There's something about s'mores that's great for a cartoon.
Pat Bagley: The drawing is lovely.
That's
Graeme MacKay: just amazing.
Thank you.
I mean fire is a tricky thing to draw and I'm looking at it now
and I'm thinking there's something not very convincing about it.
But I guess this cartoon came out when there was all kinds of
forest fires happening and it was a summertime cartoon so naturally
we Canadians we love to get out.
To our great outdoors and make these s'mores.
And so I guess this time it was just perfect in July.
You know?
Daryl Cagle: Very good.
Okay, Rod, I have to read these because we are also an audio podcast.
But I am not going to, do the Accent.
Just out of respect.
Graeme MacKay: Um, I'm
Daryl Cagle: on.
So I'd love to hear it.
Would you
Rod Emmerson: like?
Daryl Cagle: Would you like me to?
How about you read this one?
Give us a good accent.
Rod Emmerson: Okay, so what's happening here is that we've got a pretty
crowded cartoon, and it's budget time.
This is the harsh reality off of the climate crisis.
Right?
all things still have to go forward.
So we have the government.
About to formulate a budget.
For the next 12 months.
I have the prime minister of New Zealand, the former prime minister, I should
say, he was outed in the election a few weeks back, Chris Hipkins, at an ATM
in the street, and he's saying "More?".
and beside him is, Cyclone Gabriel, who's dressed like a
street girl, and she's coughing.
Look at her, looking at her nails.
and to his right, we have the mayor of Auckland, who's quite a gruff
sort of guy, takes no prisoners when he talks and he says, yes, and
don't try and short change me, mate.
And in the person standing beside
Daryl Cagle: the mayor, this is so complicated with all
these people that nobody knows.
You
Rod Emmerson: need to have this because these are all that these
are all the aspects of a budget, all these things come into play.
we've also got a woman asking about groceries, a little help with the
groceries, because there's been, cost of living crisis as has everybody
else, we've had inflation, but we've also had greed inflation, where people
continue to push prices up unnecessarily just to test the public's tolerance.
And then to the far right, I've got a polar bear saying, and don't
forget about me, climate change.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I tell you, in this cartoon, I did recognize the polar bear.
Rod Emmerson: I went to a lot of trouble, just, just in
Daryl Cagle: case, just in case you're here's another one
of yours that I understood.
You've got the couple standing in Auckland.
And,
Rod Emmerson: this is quite important because,
Daryl Cagle: Wait, I should say, he says, wow, the first monsoon season and
we were there the monsoon looks like a giant, screaming skull of climate
change and, climate change for you in New Zealand means it rains all the time.
Rod Emmerson: and it's raining now, to be honest.
And what we, what happened, that brought about this cartoon is
we had a horrific, weather event at the beginning of this year.
And it was.
A sort of thing that you would expect to see in the tropics, and it absolutely
devastated Auckland and surrounding areas, including down on our east coast.
And there are photographs that, that need to be seen to be
believed with cars, buried in up to three or four meters of silt.
From the rain we've had, two major weather events this year, but on
top of that, and this is the real killer on top of that, we've had two
separate weeks of straight sunshine.
The rest of it has been for the rest of the year has been nothing
but rain drizzle, the odd storm here and there, a bit of hail.
It's just been amazing.
It's been amazing.
Graeme MacKay: Is this, these, these catastrophic, uh, monsoon
events or have you ever seen anything like this before in your
Rod Emmerson: life?
Never.
No.
Not like this.
Nothing like this.
this is, weather you would expect to see in the tropics.
And of course, and this year was also our warmest year ever on record.
Graeme MacKay: Well, I'm just saying here, it counters kind of the ones on
the denier side, saying, Oh, we've always had these big storms, and hurricanes, and
monsoons, there's nothing new about it,
Daryl Cagle: but...
Do you get a sense that the deniers are kind of going quiet, as now,
in the last couple of years, the climate change is much more obvious?
Graeme MacKay: No.
I think they're louder.
Rod Emmerson: Not at all.
Not at all.
They're getting louder, yeah.
Getting louder.
Daryl Cagle: I've noticed it in cartoons.
I'm not seeing the denial...
cartoons like I used to, from the Conservatives.
Graeme MacKay: I think you are finally waking up.
you think of the Kyoto Protocol, that goes back to what, 1992?
So there's been enough, decades passing that we should be
getting used to this already.
Daryl Cagle: Here Pat has the Serve Humankind cookbook with
how to cook the poached earth.
it is kind of a recipe for poaching, isn't it?
Uh, with the earth like an egg, with the hot sun and the flood,
Pat Bagley: There's the old, uh, Twilight Zone episode, of, again, the aliens coming
and they bring this book and we translate it, and it says, How to Serve Mankind.
And, so, people are getting on the spaceship to go to the aliens
planet, and somebody comes running up and they said, It's a cookbook!
Daryl Cagle: So here we have, liar, liar, pants on fire, uh, Republican
elephant saying climate change is a hoax as he's wearing his money shirt,
his pants are quite on fire, and he's hugging oil and gas, the cute chick.
picking his pocket.
wonderful cartoon.
Pat Bagley: Well, and this is a kind of a local cartoon as well, because the
Utah legislature is in the pocket of oil and gas and oil and gas brings in about
3 billion dollars to the Utah economy.
Meanwhile, recreation, tourism, skiing, all that kind of
stuff brings in 13 billion.
So they should be paying attention to where their money is really coming from.
But The thing about oil and gas, which I gotta say, they know who to bribe.
Daryl Cagle: I thought this was a very funny cartoon you don't really
see many cartoons about, snake handling crazy Christians and, I
think that's great for cartoons.
Makes me laugh.
So you've got the Pope holding the fragile earth while the crazy
Climate change denial snake handlers.
They say don't mind him.
He's just some lefty kook.
I Laughed out loud at this one
Pat Bagley: I'm glad you liked it.
A lot of these right wing Christians in congress are just snake handlers,
Daryl Cagle: you've got the, the fossil fuels guy, with his
magnifying glass burning up the earth.
Pat Bagley: Again, it's just, it's just about money.
money is the root of all Republicans.
They don't care if it, kills their children's future.
There you go.
They have to make the money right now.
Daryl Cagle: They do.
And I love this composition.
The composition makes me laugh.
Rod Emmerson: It's clever.
It's extremely clever.
Um, because really, when you draw a cartoon, it tends to start top left
hand corner for reading top left hand corner, running a line straight
down to the bottom right hand corner where there's usually the signature.
Daryl Cagle: I should add, this cartoon is basically three circles, top left, middle,
and lower right, in a diagonal from upper left to lower right, which is very, simple
and bold, the composition just makes
Rod Emmerson: me laugh as well.
Yeah, but it's a straight line, and it works so quickly.
Oh, thank you.
I love it,
Daryl Cagle: yeah.
So here you've got Peppy, the internet frog, and he's sitting in the climate
crisis, bowl, boiling with all of his other animal friends, and he says,
this is fine, like that other internet character that sits in the fire.
Does he have a name?
The dog.
. The dog.
The dog, yeah.
The dog that sits in the fire and says, this is fine.
Uhhuh.
. . That's a, that's a, that's a koala.
Rod Emmerson: That's a koala you've got there.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Yes.
A koala penguin and a lobster.
Pat Bagley: This is what, 2000?
I can't see it.
2000.
But this is before the fires that they had in Australia that, were so, so devastating
to the koalas, to the wildlife.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have more frogs in a pot.
Of course, when you, cook frog with the heat coming up slowly in a pot,
they just stay in the pot and they cook like we all do with climate change.
And, they're all saying it's hot.
And Representative Chris Stewart says, I want that one to testify
at my climate change hearings.
I assume this is a bad congressman you've got?
Pat Bagley: Yeah, Chris Stewart is actually, he was my
congressman until he retired.
And he retired because he said he had to take care of his sick wife.
And then it turns out, a couple weeks ago, we find out that he's opening
up a, lobbying firm in Washington, D.
C.
Daryl Cagle: They get a big paycheck from, K Street, when they quit.
It's the thing to do.
It's their retirement plan.
Pat Bagley: But there's also this thing that the Republicans do, where they
get their experts testifying before Congress, and they're always kooks.
They're always, frauds.
but they say, no, these people are experts.
Daryl Cagle: Here's Pepe again.
he's burning in the climate change pot.
And he says, Hunter Biden's laptop.
That is so true.
The problem is that we draw them and they don't get reprinted in
newspapers that are all focused on the issue of the day, because
climate change is a constant issue.
Graeme MacKay: And as a Canadian who observes, American politics in the
most politest way, I watched, a recent town hall with all those Republicans
up and not, One question was raised, this was the CNN, uh, town hall, that
there was not one question directed to them about climate change, I don't
know, maybe that was the agreed upon thing with the Republican candidate.
No talking about climate change.
We must just talk about, you know, Biden's laptop and that sort of thing.
Daryl Cagle: I think you've got Russia fueled by oil and you've got the Middle
East burning and it's all fueled by oil.
And it seems like oil is in the countries that are the worst problems in the world.
And, America producing more oil would just be the worst lower their income
of all the places in the world that cause so much trouble right now.
I think that's a good argument for, uh, let's put it off until later and suffer
a few more degrees but, , there's always gonna be something urgent.
Rod Emmerson: Russia's contribution is greater than oil and gas.
You know, what's not taken into the equation is the tundra, the
permafrost, their permafrost, Russia's permafrost has been slowly,
but surely melting and warming.
And as it does that, it releases.
Insurmountable amounts of, methane gases into the atmosphere.
This is all, none of this is included in any, climate, equations
Daryl Cagle: at all.
There, there's also, Canada's permafrost and Alaska's permafrost.
Rod Emmerson: Yeah.
We're going to talk about Canada.
Graeme MacKay: No,
Rod Emmerson: but that's quite true.
And it's very worrying that one.
Graeme MacKay: Oh, absolutely.
it's not just the permafrost, it's any kind of, um, digging up
of, of green space or green belt.
You're going to get a massive release of methane into the atmosphere.
And, and that's all chemistry, and it's beyond their, heads, you
know, it's just too complex for them to wrap their heads around.
Fossil fuels are an easy target to go to, obviously, especially Russian fossil
fuels.
Daryl Cagle: easy, and, legitimate, as we're looking at wars all the
time that are funded by the oil.
But those are not the arguments that you hear the conservatives
making, by and large.
Right now, they're not even spending any time arguing this.
They just talk about other subjects.
Precisely.
So, uh, Pat, you've got the homeless guy politicized silence, as the homeless
guy in, in Los Angeles, nobody paying attention to his crazy rantings.
Pat Bagley: Well, I mean, this was during a heat wave in Los Angeles
where it got up to 110, I think it was 2010 that I did this or maybe 2000.
but the right wing always brings out these people who deny the obvious.
So this homeless, person, is dressed in several layers of clothing.
And he's just denying the obvious truth that it's really
Daryl Cagle: hot.
It is really hot.
Okay, here you've got Exxon, Exxon Climate Scientists, and uh, the Exxon executive
says, we see your department going in a different direction, with, there's a trap
door underneath them about to drop them down, like the Three Stooges or something.
That's, that's very
Pat Bagley: funny.
So Exxon was studying climate change back in the 1970s.
And the scientist actually said, this is going to be bad.
And, they could have done the right thing and, alerted people to what was going on.
Instead they buried it.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got the lemonade stand, kids selling lemonade, 25 cents.
You've got the climate denial, Kool Aid stand with the elephant that Republican
that says, I drank it all because it's not hot out and I wasn't really
Pat Bagley: thirsty.
I guess this is the right wing
Daryl Cagle: denying reality.
They do.
here you have for a record heat with the, what I assume is another,
elephant sticking his head in the ground like an Australian ostrich
and, he's not seeing global warming.
Mm hmm.
Mm
Graeme MacKay: You know, being in Canada, those things work well because
we have freezing cold temperatures here and when you mention global warming
in the depths of February, it's sort of like this thing that's easy for
the deniers to cling on and say, Oh, global warming and it's like minus,
you know, 30 degrees Celsius outside.
You know, back in the, back in the early part of this century,
that was a good gag for me to use.
But, it kind of looks old nowadays, when you, when you're in the depths of winter
and you're complaining about, uh, or arguing that climate change is not real.
Daryl Cagle: Well, also, it's cold up there, so one might think that
a couple of degrees of warming wouldn't bother you guys, but it
seems to just set everything on fire.
Well, exactly.
Graeme MacKay: It's just the extremes.
Extremes are not good.
And we're seeing a lot more here.
So...
In
Pat Bagley: July, I was in Milwaukee.
And, the air was just incredibly cloudy.
And it was because of the wildfires up in
Graeme MacKay: Canada.
Yes, it was all Canada's fault.
How many times I saw lots of great gags about Canada causing, and I, I don't know
why because we always have fires up here.
It's just, this was a phenomenon that I've never seen.
I don't think anyone else has seen, you know, the orange sky over Manhattan.
And it kept going through the whole summer.
So there's an anomaly at play there.
I don't think it was any worse than any other year when it
came to forest fires in Canada.
It was just a.
The way the prevailing winds were going, and I think you could
probably point that back to the long term effects of climate change.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it it lasted for months with the smoke over the United States.
The smoke over the United States is what gets it into the media.
and it seemed quite different to me.
Graeme MacKay: It was different.
And again, immediately you had people coming out and saying that they were
caused by eco crazy people who are causing all these fires and setting
them deliberately, by, uh, people are trying to make a point that we've got
to do something about climate change because the world is burning and
the forests in Canada are burning.
But I think in some instances that was actually happening.
There were some, fires that were deliberately being set.
You would have to have an orchestrated thing happening across the country for
that, and I, I really highly doubt, that was happening, but, but nice
try on the, deniers playing the blame
Daryl Cagle: so, Pat, you've got two woolly mammoths holding a sign saying
global warming is a hoax as they're looking at the bleached bones of another
Woolly mammoth that has a sign that says global warming is a hoax and one
says to the other one I could just see those climate alarmists spinning this
Pat Bagley: Getting back to Florida and Canada, I think it was just a couple years
ago that in British Columbia there were entire cities that were destroyed by fires
because again, it got up to a hundred and ten hundred degrees the other side
of that is if you look at the news from Mecca It's not even be at last week in
Saudi Arabia had these Rainstorms and you see these cars being put away in Mecca.
Yeah, because of all the water there.
This is not normal.
This doesn't happen all the time.
I mean, you're not supposed to get thousand year floods every single year.
You get them every thousand years.
We're seeing thousand year floods all the time.
We're seeing thousand year heat waves all the time.
this just isn't normal.
Daryl Cagle: Here's the earth, looking at a dead bird in a bird cage and
it says, Newest item, one third of the world's birds have disappeared.
This is a fantastic thing that I noticed.
There really are less birds outside and, less insects.
I remember as a kid, we would take a road trip and there would be a bunch
of dead insects on the grill of the car or splattering on the windshield.
That doesn't happen anymore.
We don't get dead insects on the windshield or on the grill of the car.
that's a, that's a fantastic change in the world that's just overlooked
because people don't think about it.
Pat Bagley: As a child, we would travel from Oceanside,
California to Salt Lake City.
We're going to Las Vegas.
And, you know, every a hundred miles or so, we'd have to stop at a gas station
just to wipe all the insects off the car.
And now you go down there and nothing.
There's just nothing.
Rod Emmerson: That's a great cartoon, Pat.
Um, the canary in the coal mine dead in the cage.
Yeah, it's brilliant.
Graeme MacKay: it looks a lot like a, a herb block kind of cartoon
'cause he used to do that with the, the eyes and the nose on the globe.
Daryl Cagle: As you see here!
Pat draws lots of, uh, weather map cartoons, which
I think are just great fun.
Weather maps, weather maps are really pretty funny.
And, so here you've got the weather map with the warming oceans, the
great garbage, spot, the monster El Nino, the drought in California, and,
the poor guy in Utah who can't see anything because of the smoke from
the northwest burning rainforest.
This is a great cartoon.
All in there.
Yeah, it is.
It all shows up on the weather map,
So here we've got, uh, oil and gas dinosaurs looking at the giant asteroid
of, solar coming down to crush, coal, oil, and gas, and, the gas has gas.
I like that
. Rod Emmerson: Oh, I did.
It does toot.
I just noticed that
Pat Bagley: Yeah.
Nice little fart jokes that make it.
Daryl Cagle: We have moved on to Graham.
Graham, this is a fun cartoon.
I like this one.
Uh, here you've got, uh, solar facing off against petroleum.
and in a big tableau, face to face.
This is, this is a great cartoon.
Yeah, it's
Graeme MacKay: just showing, showing the battle.
This was actually drawn for a, uh, Middle Eastern based company that I
do the occasional work for, so there's an essay that goes along with this.
And, it's just, it's just sort of, without any words, really, it just
sort of, shows the face off between the good and the evil, I guess.
The, where we are, with fossil fuels on the right and where we're trying to head,
on the left to, that utopia that is the, gasless future that's gonna energize us.
Pat Bagley: but it's not, it's not really a utopia.
Graeme MacKay: No,
Pat Bagley: no.
The poorest country in Western Europe, Portugal, is 70 percent renewables.
It's got dams, it's got solar, it's got the wind.
So if the poorest country in Europe, well, in Western Europe, can do
this, we could do it if we chose to, but it's a policy decision.
We choose not to do this.
Graeme MacKay: But you, you have a hybrid kind of system.
I was in California and I saw plenty of, solar farms, that were all over the place.
Over on this side, we have a lot of, uh, wind farms.
and that in itself caused a lot of grievance for people because it chops
up a lot of, birds and other animals are, are affected by these things.
So it's, you know, it's, you have to somehow fuel humanity.
And unfortunately...
it's kind of a better approach than, I guess, spewing, carbon
into the atmosphere, so.
Pat Bagley: we're getting there.
We're,
Rod Emmerson: we're learning.
Yeah, unfortunately gas is seen as the transition, power, isn't it?
And it's probably one of the worst.
Daryl Cagle: Here you have COP 27, again, COP that we forget
what it stands for, but we just...
It's in the news one day when they come out with a statement,
it has people talking about...
climate change on that one day, and, so here you've taken the letters
of COP and, and, and demonstrated all these bad things, the money for
the big companies, and the, uh...
That was
Graeme MacKay: here, and I think that, because it was a, there was a noticeable
difference from previous COPs, that there was a huge, representation of the oil
companies that were at this, and they were almost outnumbering the, you know, the
activists, the scientists who were there to, you know, promote their, uh, Whatever
they're doing, uh, greenwashing or whatever they're doing in their respective
Daryl Cagle: companies.
They're just mugging and smiling, putting on a show and not doing much of anything
as they greenwash over the issue.
Rod Emmerson: Great drawing, by the way.
Daryl Cagle: Thanks.
It's a culture of parties.
Here, it looks like COP26 was in Glasgow, this year on your COP,
drawing of the year cartoon.
And, all the guys are, having a party and they're thinking about
the clocks that, expire for them.
My elected set term of office, my peak earnings for eco book,
the deadline to apply for war subsidies, all of these things.
things that for them are, uh, going to run out and they don't have to really do
anything because they're out the door.
I thought that was very nice.
Graeme MacKay: Thank you.
And time is running out.
Daryl Cagle: Time is running out, but we can't deal with long term issues
because everybody is short term.
Graeme MacKay: Well, we're having, the next COP is coming up next
week, apparently, in Dubai.
So, get your pencils ready for it.
You'll get your one annual, treat next
Daryl Cagle: week.
This is like, the Earth Day cartoon.
Yeah.
The Earth Day and COP, twice a year you get a cartoon.
Yeah.
I ask you guys to this, podcast because you draw more climate change cartoons
than once a year, and, you're all very good on that, and I like that.
It's good to see.
We'll see if we can get anybody to watch this podcast that doesn't have Trump.
Okay, so here you've got the big pie with the Liberals Act on Climate
Change, and they, are cutting it up so that it doesn't quite say that.
And is that Justin Trudeau saying, Pssst, Garcon!
Some more carve outs to come.
And then some guy that nobody would know who has the name Guilbeau.
What is it, Gilbo?
Gilbo
Graeme MacKay: is his last
Daryl Cagle: name.
Okay, who is this
Graeme MacKay: guy?
Stephen Gilbo is the environment minister, the federal environment minister.
He actually used to be climate activist.
And he'd be the guy that'd be scaling up...
Parliament buildings and things like that and he actually ran for the Liberals in
a recent election and was appointed As the environment minister and he's like
the he's the one kind of champion about the carbon taxes that we've had and
the carve out that not not to get too deep into the weeds of boring Canadian
politics, but Trudeau has been the big champion of putting a price on carbon.
And we've been dealing with this for a few years.
And now with the cost of living crisis that we're all dealing with, he actually
bent and said, we're gonna take off the carbon tax on home heating on oil.
But it just so happens that most of the people who use oil as a home heating
source is in the Maritimes where Many of the votes for the Liberal Party come from.
So the rest of the people, uh, West of New Brunswick heat their
houses with natural gas mostly.
And so all these people who vote conservative were shut out.
So it was this kind of like, kind of political opportunist thing that he's
done to basically destroy the signature.
piece of what the Liberals represent in fighting climate change.
So it's, it's really causing trouble for him now.
And now people are demanding that, oh, well, the farmers need to get like a,
something chopped off their carbon tax.
And, the poor people in the West need some kind of thing.
So what are you going to do, Justin?
And it's really, it's really turned, the whole price on carbon
in this country upside down.
And we're at a crossroad right now.
And we've got a Conservative guy.
Pierre Pauliev, who's on the edge, and he's about to take over, and
he's just like the Republicans.
He has no policy, really, towards, uh, fighting climate change whatsoever.
So the clock is about to be turned back in, in Canada,
and it's kind of a sad time.
For people who are really, thinking that the time was, was, is long past to do
something about fighting climate change.
Daryl Cagle: Very good.
So here you've got a multi panel cartoon.
You've got the dumb everyman who says, science doesn't tell me what to do.
He's holding a COVID hoax sign.
And, The COVID person comes in with a lotto ticket and a needle
to vaccinate him, and he says, Huh?
He gets his lotto ticket and his vaccination, and then he goes to the
next spot where the climate change person is also offering a lotto ticket.
Do they give lotto tickets to people who've got vaccinations in Canada?
Yes, I
Graeme MacKay: think in some other western provinces, Alberta was one
where they tried to entice them.
They did.
There was like a lottery and, These, these sort of types would actually get
vaccinated and it actually worked and, they were able to increase the numbers and
other provinces got on board with this.
Of course, it caused, headaches where other governments said,
well, we're not going to do that.
That's crazy, but it's funny in that the whole COVID pandemic and climate
change has, parallels where you have these deniers, you have the hoaxers.
It tends to come from the right, and you know, we also had that horrible convoy,
freedom convoy thing that happened.
Rod Emmerson: Yeah, thanks Graham.
Yeah, exactly.
Graeme MacKay: They wanted to catch it on the US, it never did get here far.
But, The parallels they are very deep with, um, the hoaxers on the COVID
side and, and the climate change people, and I thought that was an
Daryl Cagle: interesting comment.
There is, a, kind of a checklist of, uh, conspiracies and hoaxes that,
, the right wing tends to all agree
Graeme MacKay: well, the talking points, though, are on both
sides of the spectrum, really.
You're, hearing parroting on both sides.
I've tuned into some of your podcasts, Daryl, and I've seen some of...
Our fellow colleagues parrot what you would hear on, on Fox or in Breitbart.
They use these terms that no one else uses and refer to like George Soros.
Whatever is, is being said on TV and where they're getting their sources
of information, you know, but this part, the one common denominator,
and this is just a mistrust for, for science, which is largely on
the, on the right of the spectrum.
Pat Bagley: So I, I spoke to, uh, the Chamber of Commerce in Salt Lake City a
few years ago and I took questions after I gave my presentation and I got this one
question and I couldn't quite understand what he was talking about, but he, he was
basically asking where do I get my talking points from, like he expected us to all
get the same memo and all to be on the same page because that made sense to him.
Daryl Cagle: Hmm.
I think that is one area where, cartoonists can, be a little
proud because I don't know anybody that gets talking points.
they're pushed into following the checklist just by, watching the media
and living in their media bubble.
I think that, cartoonists are, much better pundits.
One thing I want to prove on, this podcast is that, editorial cartoonists are,
better talking heads than columnists.
And you know, when cartoonists go on TV, we get the, How do you draw like that?
Where do you get your ideas?
Questions.
Columnists go on TV.
Nobody asks them, where do you get your ideas?
And how'd you learn to type like that?
It just doesn't happen because there's some kind of presumption that
columnists have this, vast pool of knowledge and are respected experts.
What they don't know since they don't know about syndication is that almost
all of those columnists only have three or four newspapers subscribing to them
and being a syndicated columnist doesn't mean a whole lot, but no, syndicated
columnists are these experts and, Editorial cartoonists who are actually
brighter and wittier and have to have the same vast body of knowledge and
don't have talking points are passed by because they just don't understand
cartoons like they understand words.
And so, that makes me mad and that's my rant.
Graeme MacKay: Well, and it doesn't help that you go on social media and
you have people all over thinking or acting like they're experts, you know,
last week they're an expert on, on, I don't know, on the COVID and then
this week they're, yeah, on COVID.
And then this week they're an expert on the Middle East.
Like, where's your diploma on the wall that says that?
I think for cartoonists, we're just like average folk that just have the
talent to, synthesize what we're reading in the news and come up with kind
of witty Summations of what's going
Daryl Cagle: on.
Well, you know, we get the news from both sides of the spectrum, and both sides
of the spectrum have that, checklist where they agree on all the topics.
Cartoonists aren't like that.
We're normal people, and we're going to agree on some of the topics and
not on some of the other topics.
we're not beholden to that list.
And, that just doesn't conform.
Here's another Trump.
He says we're going to build a wall, but what he builds is a wall of coal burning
smokestacks that engulf Canada in smoke.
And, Canadians are paying for Trump's coal.
I typically think of Canada engulfing America in smoke.
Graeme MacKay: No, that's of course what we've been used to in the last year.
But this I think was just after he was elected president.
So we're talking what, 2016, 2017.
yeah, that was his big promise.
we're going to bring coal back to West Virginia and Kentucky and all these.
States that relied on it as, you know, part of their economy, but in actual
fact, I understand coal has been receding quite immensely in the United
States since Trump became president.
So his dream was never realized.
I think more and more, they're getting off of coal as far as I know.
I know in Canada, in Ontario, we're totally without coal.
fire power plants now, and I, I think that's the direction that the U.
S.
is going.
So, I think Trump will say something, but in actuality, things are progressing well.
Daryl Cagle: progressing well here, although they're adding coal like
crazy in China and in India and, across the world it's not improving.
Graeme MacKay: No, and, and that's, that's the thing.
It's a, it's a cheap way of producing, electricity and, that's the way a
lot of these poor countries, that's the way they can only go over here.
Rod Emmerson: Well, India, yeah,
Pat Bagley: They're
still building coal plants, though.
Yeah, they are.
Exactly.
So, here, Graham, you've got, we demand action on climate change, which means
we recycle, I can't do green bins.
We eat less meat.
I'm allergic to non meat products.
We use LED and CFL light bulbs.
Not me, I hate them.
We carpool and take public transport.
Not convenient for me.
Everyone will pay higher carbon taxes.
Can we opt out?
Graeme MacKay: That was a good Canadian accent you put on there, Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
And they're all on, and they're all on a disembodied heads on the green background.
Yes.
Graeme MacKay: Well, you try drawing all those bodies.
It's not an easy feat.
You don't think I didn't do copy paste on that?
I mean, come on.
Daryl Cagle: Very good.
Graeme MacKay: yeah, I'm not going to go into secrets of what we all do.
Daryl Cagle: You know, it's interesting I get a lot of mail from people
that suggest cartoon ideas to me.
And they're all kind of of the nature of, Daryl, you should draw this army
on the left side of the cartoon coming in facing off against this other army,
and the sky is filled with helicopters, and there's this politician and that
politician, and they're down here, and they're saying this and that, and, it's
like they have no idea how lazy we are.
Graeme MacKay: It's, it's all like these complex ideas and it takes them five
minutes to spit it out and then, you know what, you draw that, you find an
iPad and draw that with Procreate, you
Daryl Cagle: know, you get, you get the same emails, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, absolutely.
Okay, so here you've got the crowd of people, you do draw crowds of people,
and they're, the Vox Populi, then, three minutes ago, they're saying stop the
rising levels of greenhouse gas, action now, and now they've crossed that out
and they want to stop the rising cost of gas, because the rising cost of
gas is what bothers them this minute.
Well,
Graeme MacKay: this is the key thing from both those cartoons that this is
an issue of climate change is something that, you can't regulate from just the
government to curtail your activity.
You have to, you have to participate, you have to do the right thing and,
do what you can for climate change, which might mean driving less or,
planting a tree or doing something.
But when push comes to shove people.
Are, are gonna blame government and they're gonna be pissed off because
of taxes or whatever like that, but when you're asked to do something to
contribute to fixing the situation, then they're gonna put up a fuss.
And that's what I'm showing
Daryl Cagle: these two cartoons.
Here you've got the progressively bigger waves about to crash into the
little city which says, be sure to wash your hands and all will be well.
COVID recession, climate change, and biodiversity collapse.
Graeme MacKay: Yeah, this is um, a viral cartoon.
This, this went all over the world.
It continues to go all over the world.
And it all started, actually, it originated, the first two waves
there, COVID 19 and recession were the original cartoon.
that happened the day after the pandemic was declared by the WHO.
And now, all of a sudden, a few weeks later, I start seeing
people adding their own waves.
Like a crudely drawn climate change showed up, and I started seeing it on
my Twitter feed, and I thought, Well, someone's kind of like, hijacking my
cartoon and turning it into a meme.
So I drew it, with the three waves.
And all of a sudden I saw the biodiversity collapse wave
show up a few weeks after that.
So I re possessed my cartoon, and this is what the final version is.
Although now I'm seeing other...
Renditions coming out where World War 3 is behind by for biodiversity
class, which makes no sense because once Biodiversity collapse as well.
The human race is supposed to be the same.
Yeah, it's it.
Yeah, so there's no there's no fifth wave here An alien invasion would work
perhaps you can bring it some of your
To do that you're authorized to do
Daryl Cagle: Here are the big banks as the octopus, which is a wonderful
historic, meme for editorial cartoonists, octopus cartoons.
And, he's saying, we're doing our part for a green future as he is looking on
one side like he's green, but on the other side, you see that he's really dirty
and oily and fossil fuel investment y.
Very, very nice.
Graeme MacKay: And it's, of course, it's not confined just to us in Canada.
I'm sure, you know, they've got this going in New Zealand
and Utah and California, so.
Rod Emmerson: Yeah, Australia.
Daryl Cagle: This is a, cute cartoon for the hottest month,
in history in July of this year.
people sitting in the slowly boiling pot, burning up, which slowly boiling pot
seems to be the image for all of this.
lovely cartoon.
But again,
Graeme MacKay: that's, global boiling is the term that
happened in the summer of 2023.
I'd never heard that term before, so I thought, I...
It might show up.
It'll probably show up next year and the following year.
So let's let's get it on the the record
Rod Emmerson: very good
Daryl Cagle: And here.
You've got two faced Justin.
Yeah,
Graeme MacKay: and he's going back.
He's reverting back to this because he's got an election coming up
and for the longest time he's been sitting on the fence and he's been
coddling At both sides, I think this is a dilemma that all politicians
really, have to deal with, whether you're, you're in Canada or elsewhere.
we're going to do that transformation period between fossil fuels and, the,
uh, unicorns and rainbows side where it's, um, we're off fossil fuels.
And it's, it's wonderful time to be a cartoonist to draw the hypocrisy
of it all with our respective leaders in figuring this whole thing out.
Daryl Cagle: I hear you have Biden and Justin Trudeau about to, do the high jump.
this is a funny way of depicting, Biden because he,
seems to struggle just to walk,
Graeme MacKay: but he's in an Evel Knievel kind of outfit.
I had to look up Evel Knievel, what he wore back in the sixties when he
was doing his motorcycle jumps, but, um, that was the inspiration there.
And it's, during the time, where, the thing is, um, Justin Trudeau can speak
a big game about, climate change, but our emissions have been increasing, ever
since we signed onto the Paris Agreement, and as much as he can talk about it.
The efforts that are being done are clearly not enough, it's
just getting worse and worse.
Biden came along with the Green Leap, as far as I remember.
I haven't heard much about it since, but, you had the,
Daryl Cagle: the squad.
Oh, this was a thing, the Green Leap?
I don't remember Green Leap.
Graeme MacKay: Was the Green Leap not happening?
You know, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was all, all about it.
They're going on about this and, and trying to provoke,
Biden to get on, on side.
And I think he's, he's brought in some measures that have appeased them.
And, meanwhile in Canada, we've just kind of dawdled away, and, and not been able
to keep up with the, ambitious targets that Biden has, has brought to the U.
S.
Daryl Cagle: So here's another one with some crazy people who knows who they are.
Doug Ford and Jason Kenney.
let's get the message out.
No carbon tax.
this cartoon is just A great looking cartoon.
It's got a kind of a vintage feel to the design.
The no carbon tax, uh, factory spewing out smoke.
It's fun to look at, even if you don't know who the heck these people
Graeme MacKay: are.
You don't need to know.
you, we all have these characters in our respective countries.
They're the conservatives that don't want to have carbon taxes.
And here they are just burning taxpayer money in their, fight against taxes.
and, you know, usually in the courts.
They use taxpayer money to challenge federal laws or provincial laws or
whatever by, um, spending millions of dollars challenging, and then they go
nowhere, and then the Supreme Court rules, no, the federal, you're, you're
going to federal jurisdiction, and they're allowed to impose a carbon
tax, you know, it's just that fight between conservatives and liberals.
On putting a price on carbon and it can be anywhere in the world.
It's happening all over the place.
Daryl Cagle: You have a very nice looking drawing of Canada all on fire and burned
up, people saying arson is starting it, climate hoax, wildfires are normal.
Graeme MacKay: It goes back just to the armchair critics out there
on social media who instantly see some kind of calamity happening and
and they go and come up with their conspiracies or their explanations as
to what's, what's, um, what's happening.
And it's usually driven by whatever talking points.
It's being spoken on their favorite,
Daryl Cagle: cable shows.
So we're moving on to Rod.
Rod, two big dinosaurs arguing at each other with climate change,
asteroids coming down onto the earth.
And one says more roads.
The other one says light
Rod Emmerson: rail.
It's a great analogy.
This one is, it's been used a thousand times over, but it.
It never fails to get the message across.
we've just been through an election cycle here and this represents both sides
of the political spectrum, which just frightened the daylights out of me because
no one was talking about climate change.
They were talking about more roads.
they were talking about.
Light rail, that just the menial things that always come up on the election cycle.
and yet the real, the real danger and the real elephant in the room,
I'm going to say, was climate change because we were experiencing it all
this year, you know, with this, extreme, weather events that we were having.
So, yeah, I quite liked that one and went over quite well
Daryl Cagle: here.
Well, unless you have some, thing happening like the Earth Day or the COP
Report Day, your climate change everyday cartoons just aren't getting reprinted.
perhaps you don't have that trouble in New Zealand since you're the
big paper for all of New Zealand.
Yes, well...
But, uh, you know, for us, part of drawing a, cartoon is to get it to
rise above the short term, thinking of the editors, and, it's a challenge
to get these cartoons reprinted.
Rod Emmerson: Yeah, I think climate change is very much on everybody's
minds here, especially the, extreme weather events that we've had this year.
Everybody, and it's been quite devastating.
Everybody's attuned to it now, except the politicians.
Oh, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Here you've got, penguins on an iceberg and the lady with her
grocery shopping cart at an iceberg.
And one penguin says, personally, I'd say the cost
Pat Bagley: of living is the least of your worries, but what would I know?
Rod Emmerson: I deliberately put this snarly look on the face of the penguin
and put them on a heavily melted, uh, floating piece of ice, you know,
the Christchurch on our south island is the jumping point to Antarctica.
That's where, the big bases depart from.
And, so we're, we've got a strong link to the south pole,
all the bases on the south pole.
All this is happening.
You know, all the news that's coming back from our scientists
is very, very worrying.
of course, there are also the day to day issues like the cost of living
and all of this, mind you, is a byproduct of COVID and lockdown.
what I was talking about before, gridflation, where People are now
seeing a head of cabbage, you know, 10 bucks, cauliflower, 10, you know,
I mean, it's the sort of thing you used to run over with the lawnmower.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Well, how much is a New Zealand dollar worth?
Uh, US dollars.
As US
Rod Emmerson: dollars, probably about 60 cents.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, well, those are cheap prices.
Graeme MacKay: Good point.
Daryl Cagle: here you've got, 2001 Space Odyssey cartoon
Rod Emmerson: well, I, I sat and watched this.
I remember seeing this at the cinema and just being, completely awestruck
by the, by the way this was presented, this particular scene, and, uh,
where the monkey Throws a bone in the air and it turns into a spaceship.
I reckon I'll never ever forget that.
I thought, just thought it was brilliant.
so I watched that scene where the, this, obelisk just appears out of nowhere.
so, you know, we were surrounded by skeptics.
And, um, and, and continue to, to this day, of course.
But it's the science that was just baffling to everybody.
They couldn't get their head around it.
Daryl Cagle: So this is a, illustration of your, storms with the floods and a giant
drain, the storm water infrastructure required for climate change.
Just nowhere to put that water.
Yeah, that's well,
Rod Emmerson: this goes back to my days, um, before cartooning where I used to be a
design draftsman in municipal engineering.
So I used to design, roads, water, and sewerage.
and, you know, from the experience of that, in designing, stormwater
drainage, what's, required to get the rainfall away, in a, in a peak
storm, it was like a 100 year event.
And after the experiences.
Of this year here in New Zealand.
And this particular area is deliberately Hawke's Bay, which
is a quite a famous wine area here in New Zealand on the East Coast.
Um, they were just swamped.
And this is, um, byproduct of forestry that, um, for the slash.
from forestry washed into the streams.
It took out infrastructure washed out onto the beaches and then, and would run 20 to
30 kilometers up and down various beaches.
It's just wall to wall, forestry slash the water.
What, because of all that, the, uh, the silt that came with it,
uh, took out homes, buried homes, buried cars, it was just frightening.
The whole thing was frightening and you, you wouldn't have enough infrastructure
in the world to be able to take this away in a, um, you know, for stormwater.
So I, I sort of applied my, uh, former life as a design draftsman, and stuck
that in the middle of a cartoon.
And I think it worked
Daryl Cagle: rather well.
Very good.
Here you have the EVs running up against the dairy.
Beef, sheep industry, and they're saying, what's the rush?
How is it that EVs are running up against this industry?
Is this a cow flatulence,
Rod Emmerson: A cow, a cow fart tax.
Yes.
Well, you have to put it in perspective.
New Zealand has a population of just over 5 million, right?
Which is probably a Los Angeles suburb.
So it's quite a small country.
and I'll.
One of our biggest industries, of course, is, uh, dairy and
the beef and sheep industry.
And unfortunately, these, those industries that contribute the most to the methane
gases and everything that we're trying to stop, and they're also a The loudest
voices, uh, trying to shut down, any laws and in this case, it's, New Zealand
government came up with a net zero by 2050 and the screaming from this quarter.
Um, was just phenomenal.
and of course, at that time, the government introduced an
incentive to buy EV vehicles.
The New Zealand government actually declared, uh, officially
declared a climate emergency.
the Adern government did, and introduced a rebate if you bought
an electric vehicle or a hybrid.
And, you know, like between five to eight thousand dollars, and, of course, there
was a huge rush onto these vehicles.
But the screaming came from the dairy industry, of course.
Daryl Cagle: So are they just screaming against, uh, anything that
is, global warming helpful, even if it's not directly affecting them?
Rod Emmerson: The vast majority, are, yes.
They haven't moved technology, towards, offsetting their contribution
to the methane gas, problem that we've got here in New Zealand.
and I'll never understand why they won't move forward.
The science is there, there's a big push to get dairy.
Out of our rivers and streams, for heaven's sake.
cause that's, that's another area where there's a massive amount of pollution.
Um, you'll probably see this come up in a couple of more cartoons.
But they're a very vocal group.
Quite, it's quite sad.
Daryl Cagle: You know, frankly, I don't think of New Zealand
as a place for pollution.
I think of it as, the place where you have the hobbit and beautiful mountains
and Everything is not overpopulated, it's green and it's lovely and,
it's just odd that this would be
... Rod Emmerson: Pretty well, every river and stream that runs from
runs down from the mountains.
And we have some spectacular mountain ranges here, the Southern
Alps in particular, virtually every single river and stream will run
through or past a farm of some sort.
And those farms will be, mostly, either dairy, beef, sheep,
or pig, or the pig industry.
And, um, but...
The testing of the waterways, let's forget about the gases, the testing
of the waterways has proved that, um, they're contributing to the
decline in our rivers and streams.
They used to say that it was 100 percent New Zealand, you know, 100 percent clean.
They'd be lucky if it's 30 percent clean.
Pat Bagley: Okay.
So I used to do cartoons for the Dairyman magazine in the United States.
And I sent one of my cartoons in the Dairyman magazine and I got a
call from the editor and he goes, how many teats does a cow have?
there are four.
four.
Yeah.
Gushers
Rod Emmerson: fool.
Graeme MacKay: I thought there was six or eight.
Is it like
Daryl Cagle: a spider?
That sounds just wrong.
Graeme MacKay: Four.
There are four.
Rod obviously knows.
Oh,
Daryl Cagle: yes I've seen enough of
Rod Emmerson: them
Daryl Cagle: All right, well here you have the military helmet with born to save
the planet on it and marine permaculture Seaweed and eat it and climate emergency.
It's uh, it's uh anti war uh as uh Uh, anti global war.
I mean, that's a good looking cartoon.
Rod Emmerson: It's a play on the Full Metal Jacket poster.
but this came out, well actually, this illustration accompanied a story, by
one of our lead writers on, um, Adern's, declaration of a climate emergency and
why we need to do it and what, what.
What does New Zealand need to do to offset the problems that we're experiencing
here and to make our contribution to the world, and it they ran this illustration
large and the weekend Herald, it was, very popular, I have to say, used
passed around a lot on social media.
Daryl Cagle: It's iconic.
Pat Bagley: Beautiful drawing.
Graeme MacKay: It is.
But that's one of the arguments that a lot of people say is why are
we bothering with, carbon tax and everything when you have all these
other countries that don't do enough.
They don't care.
But there's a responsibility with everyone who signed that, Paris Agreement,
you know, to act, like, responsible.
Yeah, do what you can for the planet.
You might have these laggards in the world like China and India, but Don't
look at them and don't give up just because they're not doing anything You
have a responsibility in this planet as a participant of this planet to do something
Daryl Cagle: okay, this is a great looking cartoon.
You've got Putin in the middle of all the devastation and he says, and do
you thought climate change was the number one threat facing civilization?
What about the bruised ego?
Rod Emmerson: And this is the thing, isn't it?
You know, We have these despot regimes around the world that couldn't
care less about climate change.
but more about their own egos.
Daryl Cagle: And, and he is, uh, you know, arguably, the big
problem that's happening now.
without a
Rod Emmerson: doubt.
Daryl Cagle: Good looking drawing.
Look at that.
That's very nice.
That's very funny.
You do a great Putin.
I like the pointy ears.
Rod Emmerson: I think he's evil.
Absolutely
Daryl Cagle: evil.
He is an evil bastard.
Here you have another character saying New Zealand would like to make a
memorable contribution to the global discussion on greenhouse gases as
he is farting on, on a polar bear.
Yes.
Rod Emmerson: Former Prime Minister John Key, who was a
money trader, in a previous life.
went to the Paris conference and our contribution was terrible.
Pat Bagley: So
Rod Emmerson: I thought, what better way to show it than to do exactly that.
Move on to the next one.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here you have Liberty leading the people, and it's
Ahern and there's, Trump behind her, and she's saying, okay, boomer to Trump.
it's Greta, this is a day when she, you've got a wonderful little Greta Thunberg.
Rod Emmerson: This is when cleared the, uh, er declared
the, uh, climate emergency.
And America pulled out.
Daryl Cagle: Winners and Grinners, you've got a polar bear holding up the
arms of who knows who these guys are.
Rod Emmerson: that's, uh, No, I can't remember
Daryl Cagle: their names.
It's somehow reassuring that you also don't know who they are.
Well,
Rod Emmerson: it's 2015,
Daryl Cagle: Daryl.
Okay, very good.
Well, that is your last cartoon, Rod.
And, we are just all done.
All right.
So thank you, gentlemen.
Do you have any last things you'd like to add?
Graeme MacKay: It's been a blast.
Thanks for having us.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Well, thank you, guys.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for drawing climate change cartoons when nobody
seems to care, because that's just what we should be doing.
And maybe we'll get somebody to care.
And thank you so much.
Good to see you guys.
Yes.
You too, mate.
Okay, well thank you for watching the Caglecast, Remember to
subscribe to the Caglecast, wherever you're watching this podcast.
We really appreciate it.
And, we will see you soon with the next Caglecast thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you.
Rod Emmerson: Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: See y'all.
Alright.
Graeme MacKay: Draw.