Daryl Cagle: Hey everybody, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where
we're all about editorial cartoons, and we've got three very great, very
conservative cartoonists hello gentlemen.
Gary McCoy: Hey Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: Michael Ramirez is a two time Pulitzer winner and a good
old friend of mine for many years.
His work is syndicated to hundreds of newspapers by another syndicate than ours.
And he's the full time cartoonist for the Las Vegas Review Journal, which is
an excellent cartoon friendly newspaper.
And Michael has won a ton of awards.
His work is brilliant, as you will see here.
And it's great to have you here, Michael.
Michael Ramirez: Well, thank you.
It's, uh, I'm honored to be here with the two outstanding cartoonists as well.
Yeah, well, I should say three since Daryl, of course, does cartoons as well.
Daryl Cagle: Michael, here's a couple of examples of yours.
You've got Hunter in Biden's house and he is, uh, in his underwear and
he says, Hey, dad, if you see my laptop and Biden says, no, have
you seen my confidential files?
This is hilarious., and I think that, it, it kind of brings up one of the
things that I have as a liberal looking at the conservative cartoons, because
so much of the Hunter Biden stuff, is, uh, Biden crime family, very, uh, harsh
accusations of, criminality, whereas I think, Liberals like me kind of, look
at Hunter as a doofus loser figure, as, you have portrayed him here,
and, not so much of a mafia figure.
Michael Ramirez: Well, you know, he's kind of, he's kind of a
conglomeration of both, actually.
I mean, there's 20 million dollars of money floating out there from foreign
capital, and, and, we don't know exactly how it's been distributed.
And I know Hunter's a fantastic artist, but really...
Does anyone...
Gary, when was the last time you sold a painting for the amounts that he's getting
to people that are remaining anonymous?
Gary McCoy: I told my son to forget college.
I'm going to take all of his college fund now.
I'm trying to save up to buy a Hunter painting.
Michael Ramirez: In fact, there was that story about his legal bills.
And I was thinking, what is that, like ten paintings or something?
Um, if you look in the foreground of that cartoon, I don't know if you
can see it, but there's, I always put little, easter eggs within the
cartoon itself in the foreground.
there's the, uh, cereal that's late labeled flakes.
yes, Hunter is a flake, but he's a well paid flake and while.
this kind of thing has been going on in history for generations and generations.
Neil Bush.
Don Nixon.
You could go to Hugh Rodham.
Billy Carter was not an expert in Libya.
and you could, you could use your family's familial connections to make money,
but at this point it's not illegal.
But if you don't pay taxes on it, or if you're not registered as a foreign
agent and you're doing the work of foreign entities, those are illegal.
I think these things need
to be looked into.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it seems like the main charge against him is having a gun and
lying on the application to get the gun.
How do you feel about that?
Michael Ramirez: Well, that is against the law, and I think it's kind of
ironic that you have a president here who yells and screams any time there's
an offense with a gun, that we have to have more stricter accountability
with guns, except for his son.
He seems to be leaving.
Daryl Cagle: That is interesting irony, but I also expect conservatives to be
more forgiving of gun kind of issues.
Michael Ramirez: Well, no, I think, I think, obviously, one right
of conservatism is responsibility for your individual actions.
Mm-Hmm.
. And while I do think maybe there's, perhaps an overzealous pursuit in some
of these items and he is getting a pretty hefty fine, but had he just reckoned
with it and dealt with the deal that he got, he would've been pretty well off.
I think the consequences of what's being charged against him now are
because of his own indecision, hoping that they would wrap the entire
thing in an envelope of immunity.
And that wouldn't happen for any individual in the country,
regardless of who they are.
Daryl Cagle: Well, he's a loser and a drug addict and an albatross around dad's neck.
Michael Ramirez: And also
interesting here, Daryl, is that nobody mentions that there's
more than one gun involved here.
I mean, there's the gun that his brother's wife, uh, inconveniently
disposed in the trash bin, but there's also the gun that he was flaunting
around while he was taking drugs in the photographs on his laptop.
Gary McCoy: You know, Daryl, I'm, as a gun owner, when any gun I've had to purchase,
I've had to fill out all the same.
paperwork, background FBI paperwork that Hunter Biden filled out.
So I take it dead seriously.
Everything on there.
I had to answer correctly and I would never dream of lying or I
would expect to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
So I don't think conservative gun owners look at 100 biden with sympathy.
We look at it as ardent hypocrisy.
like Mike said, you know, his father has railed against gun owners
throughout his whole life and vilified us, and here his son violates a
federal law on a gun application and
Daryl Cagle: Well, perhaps he was in a drug stupor when he
filled out the application.
Michael Ramirez: No, I think he was in a drug stupor when he did.
And look, it's just about accountability.
Nobody wants to get him because he's Hunter Biden.
Daryl Cagle: They want to find the money trail to Biden.
Michael Ramirez: There are plenty of things to get Biden with that have
nothing to do with Hunter whatsoever.
That's sort of been my position in my cartoons.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I'm
just introducing you guys here and we're spending all the
time on the first cartoon.
This is another wonderful Biden cartoon, Michael.
you know, we see so many cartoons with, traipsing the mud around.
You know, mud is a standard thing in cartoons.
But, you make this funny by really going to town on all the mud.
And, I think it's a wonderful cartoon.
You've got the Oval Office all traipsed and, uh, and footprints and handprints
of mud and, an, aide is saying to Biden, I see Hunter Biden came by.
That's just hilarious.
Michael Ramirez: You know, the amazing thing about it
is it's not even exaggerated.
Whenever Hunter goes anywhere, you know, it's funny because, when you look at
the, the plea deal that he put together.
You could tell by the rejection of that plea deal, while his father
is running for re election, that Hunter only cares about himself.
And he doesn't have any allowance for what his father is going through, whatsoever.
Daryl Cagle: It
doesn't seem like he made that decision in his own best interest, either.
That just seems to be stupid.
Michael Ramirez: It was a bad decision.
And part, well, part of it, though, when you look at it in the context of time, was
because he knew there were other charges coming along, and he would hope that this
deal would insulate him from all charges.
And, uh, it was a, it was a bad decision on his part and his lawyers
as well, not to take that plea deal.
Daryl Cagle: It was.
Okay, our next cartoonist is Rivers.
Rivers is our anonymous, brilliant, conservative
cartoonist here at Cagle Cartoons.
And, I can tell you that he has also won a ton of awards.
in his previous cartoonist life, which shall not be named,
he was, quite an award winner.
And he's a good looking fellow under the mask.
Rivers: Thank you, Daryl.
I don't know how to, I don't know how to follow up with that, but, uh.
Daryl Cagle: All right, so here you've got, Naked Hunter, and you know the
naked pictures are, are really pretty funny, and I, I think it's kind of...
a cool cartoon thing that, Hunter is just portrayed naked now.
it's his nature.
And, Biden is covering up his private parts saying, "Eyes, is up here."
That's funny that he's just acting in, in his cartoon character.
Rivers: Mm hmm.
Yeah.
No, it's very simple in its implementation, but it gets the message
Michael Ramirez: across.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another, uh, naked Hunter cartoon from you, Rivers.
Reports suggest Hunter listed his father's house as his place of residence, and
he's talking to his girlfriend saying, Come on, baby, put down my dad's top
secret stuff and blow a joint with me.
Rivers: Yes, with her arm conveniently placed.
. But, yeah, it was, it was kind of shocking when that, When those news
reports first came out you know, the things that they were trying to get
Trump on, seems that, that Joe was even more guilty in a lot of ways
because he wasn't president at the time.
A lot of those files probably needed to be in a skiff and,
here they are in his, his garage.
Gary McCoy: Hey Rivers, if I send you five bucks later, could you send me a
copy of this cartoon with her arm lower?
Michael Ramirez: Sure.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so Gary McCoy is a brilliant conservative, and
he's won a ton of awards too, including ten Silver Reubens from
the National Cartoonist Society.
He's also a prolific magazine cartoonist, and he draws two syndicated
newspaper comic strips, The Duplex and The Flying McCoy Brothers,
which is a crazy amount of work.
But you are overall crazy, Gary.
Gary McCoy: Oh, I'm your knuckle dragging conservative, Daryl.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, we've got, we've got three knuckle
dragging conservatives today.
Oh, there you go.
It's very unusual for us.
so here you've got, a husband talking to a wife, and he's on the phone and, somebody
on the phone is saying, So we replaced the fuel filter and installed a new fan belt,
but before I give you a total cost, I'd like to put my dad on the phone to say hi.
And dad says, Howdy!
And the guy says, I blame Hunter Biden for this.
that is, what Hunter does.
He puts dad on to say hi when he has business calls.
Gary McCoy: Yeah, that, that's just, it's so funny how they
tried to explain that away.
That, well, you know, he's just being a nice old guy just getting on the
phone and he happens to be around at all these, you know, accessible at
all these crucial business meetings to jump on and extend His friendliness.
Daryl Cagle: Well that's really all he needed was to jump on and say hi.
Yeah.
Here's another Hunter from you.
Uh, you got the guy sitting at the counter at the diner.
First guy says, Hunter Biden won't even acknowledge that his little girl's his.
How do you think that makes her feel?
Other guy says, probably thrilled as he looks at the newspaper saying,
Hunter Biden, hookers, drugs, grift, gun form, lies, corrupt business.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
Can we just put my cartoon up for a second and go back to Rivers and Mike's
cartoons, because I like watching, looking at theirs so much more.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, we're going to go through a whole bunch of Michael first,
then we'll do Rivers, then we'll do you.
So, Michael, you do lots of movie parodies, and I have noticed in our
stats that movie parodies are like the most popular editorial cartoons ever.
That's right.
The editors love them, the readers love them.
Michael Ramirez: Well, when you think about political cartoons, they have
to, the audience has to relate to them.
We're not, I'm, you know, I'm not just trying to offend people or
contradict their political points.
I'm trying to persuade them that if you can use iconic images that
they can relate to, if they're more relatable, I think you can reach them.
in this case with this cartoon, um, the birds, you've got the, the inflation
reduction act basically should have been called the IRS act because
it added 87, 000 new IRS agents.
as enforcers to try to get more of our money from the government.
so, I thought it immediately came to mind, this image of having the IRS
bird logo flopping around our heads, chasing us down to get every penny that
the government thinks they deserve.
You know, one thing as a, classical constitutional conservative, I need
to remind people that the government works for them, and that this
money is actually ours, and that we contribute that money so that they can
provide services on a federal plane.
I think the problem with the Biden administration and progressives, they seem
to think it's a contrary idea to that.
Daryl Cagle: I think this is a great cartoon, and the IRS is, certainly a...
threat hanging over our heads, and, uh...
Michael Ramirez: Although, you have to be careful.
I remember when I won my second Pulitzer, Bill Clinton actually sent
me a congrat uh, he was nice enough to send me a con congratulatory note.
And so I gathered all my Clinton cartoons, and I wrote him a little
note back that said, Thank you, I couldn't have done it without you.
Which I I thought it was funny at the time.
Until I got audited three months later, so.
Wow, really?
I don't, I don't know if the, the things were related.
But, you know, fortunately I've got a great accountant, so.
Daryl Cagle: Here's another movie cartoon from you.
You've got Independence Day shooting its beam down on the White House and
the aliens are by Bidenomics and it's Independence Day coming November 2024.
This looks great.
That is great.
Bidenomics is going to be his doom, I guess, because people are
unhappy with the economy, no matter how much he claims it's good.
Michael Ramirez: Well, rightfully so.
I mean, when you go to the grocery store, if you go to the gas station, you'll
know that the, you know, the price that we're paying for any kind of commodities,
our
groceries.
It's ridiculous.
This was, though, the interesting thing about this cartoon was I had just started
doing the Tuesday cartoons for the Washington Post, because they wanted to
have a conservative voice on the page.
And when this cartoon came out, which was on July 4th, thus
Independence Day, we actually had Democrat members of the Congress
protesting, having a contrary opinion.
on the editorial page.
Wow.
Daryl Cagle: most newspapers are rural and suburban newspapers.
They tend to be small and have a conservative audience.
So, uh, contrary to what some people scream, most newspapers are conservative.
And, I have certainly noted that conservative papers lean more to not doing
the left and right but rather more just the right rather than the liberal papers
that like to have both left and right.
Michael Ramirez: Yeah.
Well, that may be true, but let me disagree about the, what should be
the objective content of newspapers.
And the reason why the perception is that it's very liberal because it's dominated
by the liberal media organizations.
In fact, Michael Walsh's I'm writing a great book about that right now that
I'm going to be doing a cover for.
Well, it
Daryl Cagle: depends on what it is.
If it's small newspapers or talk radio, it's not dominated by the liberals.
Michael Ramirez: Well, I mean, but talk radio, I think, is a
different animal altogether.
We're talking about
Daryl Cagle: news.
Well, small newspapers are a different animal than the big media companies.
Although they're owned by chains.
Michael Ramirez: The big media companies are dominated is because
they control most of the organs.
That, that distribute the news or like the AP, New York Times syndication.
So they don't have huge staffs to be able to cover these broader events.
So they're, they're covered by liberal organizations.
And unfortunately, rather than giving an objective view, they
have kind of a political agenda behind what they're doing.
I think that's why we're having an erosion in the credibility
of, of the news and newspapers.
And why people are, trusting the media almost, uh, as little as politicians.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I would also argue what we're seeing with, newspapers
is that both the left and the right newspapers are tending to print the same
cartoons now, which are the opinionless cartoons that are little gag jokes.
There had been a time where we saw a real distinction between, liberal
and conservative cartoons by what the position of the paper is.
And I think that's pretty much gone now.
Uh, everything is just sweet.
Michael Ramirez: It is unfortunate.
I think it's unfortunate.
Because, you know, I'm kind of the old school journalist.
I'm the old fart screw up here.
But, I believe in the journalistic intent of political cartoons.
That they should be substantive.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I'm afraid we're losing that.
Uh, the substance is what we're losing first.
And then once we turn into gag cartoonists, there's no difference
between us and magazines and greeting cards and that's how I fear
our profession is going to sink.
Michael Ramirez: Now, I've got to come from the point of view that I don't
really look at other cartoons, so I don't, I don't know what's really going
out there, but I can tell you this.
I've never pulled a punch, and, my circulation of my
cartoons seem to be doing fine.
Daryl Cagle: Well, look at the other cartoonists in the
Washington Post that have regular contracts with them like you do.
half of them are very different.
They are just gag cartoons that don't even relate to opinions in the news.
Michael Ramirez: Well, again, I don't look at the other cartoons, but Ann
Telnaes is there, Michael DeAdder.
I think they're, they're
Daryl Cagle: They're both very good.
Look at the other three.
it's gag cartoons.
They're good gag cartoons.
but they disappoint me.
Michael Ramirez: You're just disappointed because you're a capitalist pig who's
hiding as a liberal, and you're just sad you're not monetizing more cartoons.
Come on, face it, Daryl.
Deep down, you are a conservative.
You hate to admit it.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I run a small business, which makes me at least half conservative.
Michael Ramirez: That's right.
Daryl Cagle: This is, uh, you've got Biden and Trump, as the, those evil twins
in the shining and, uh, that is just, hilarious and so true that we are stuck
with this choice in the next election.
that's a great way of portraying it as an ugly choice.
It's
Michael Ramirez: pretty amazing that with a population of 320 million people,
this is really the best we can do.
Daryl Cagle: It's terrible.
I mean, when you think you, you have any comment on that, guys?
Rivers: I love the print on the, uh, wall . That's great.
. Michael Ramirez: You know, when you, when you think about it, there was so
much discourse about Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan's probably my favorite, modern president.
but both of these candidates will be older than Reagan was when he
left office, when they enter office.
It seems to me that, uh, that we could probably do a little bit better.
Gary McCoy: I agree with you, Mike.
I mean, obviously, we have two very old guys who are at the top right now running.
I, you know, I had plenty of, Criticism for Trump and Daryl's heard
me say this before, and again, I would rather have someone younger,
in office running instead of Trump.
He's just so toxic.
he's so tainted by all the scandal by his Personality by everything and
the media, the liberal media, which kind of dominates the airwaves, just
has a nonstop drumbeat against him.
But if you just look at how the world is, you know, going to hell since
Biden got in office, and I think people just, it's a stark contrast again.
I was originally a never Trumper.
I came on board when Hillary became the nominee.
and then I, my cartoons have you know, changed over to be very
pro Trump when he was in office.
But my gosh, this Biden is just, you know, running the country to
the ground and the world again is falling apart, going to hell.
And, you
Daryl Cagle: know, Gary, I got to say, I noticed something different
from your cartoons that I find.
Remarkably few Trump cartoons from you.
And, I recall how most of the liberal cartoonists didn't draw.
Hillary cartoons and, don't draw Biden cartoons very much and, you know, it's
a big reason I wanted to have you three guys on because we've been doing all these
Trump cartoons and I'd like to answer it with some Biden cartoons, but, I did
not see Trump cartoons from you, Gary.
Gary McCoy: You mean pro Trump when he was running?
Daryl Cagle: No, any kind of Trump cartoons.
You just go silent on him like the liberals did on, Hillary and, do on Biden.
Rivers: Can I interject here?
You know, I'm an old guy, too, and, uh, back in the day, when, Clinton was the
president, I drew cartoons on Clinton.
When Bush was the president, I drew cartoons on Bush.
When, um, Obama was the president, I drew cartoons on Obama.
I did not draw cartoons on the opposition.
And I think that that is a fair place to be, who's currently in office.
So why is it that most liberal cartoonists focus, their cartoons on Trump?
Doesn't make any sense to me.
Michael Ramirez: And Daryl, really, it's a byproduct of
your philosophical foundation.
You know, I had a, I had a good friend of mine who was governor of Tennessee.
Don Sundquist, who's the Republican governor of Tennessee.
And, if he did something I disagreed with, I would do a cartoon on him because
it's based on issues and not personality.
And Don would complain about it.
And, you know, we'd have dinner and he'd say, why, why do you do these cartoons?
And I'd say, look, Don, if you never want me to do another
cartoon on you, I promise I won't.
All you have to do is call me up and check with me first.
To pass all the legislation that I agree with, and I'll never do it.
But I, my, my, um, I'm an equal opportunity offender.
when I do Trump cartoons, people call me a RINO.
That's absolutely true.
I am a Republican in name only.
I'm a constitutional conservative and a free market capitalist.
Daryl Cagle: And I do appreciate that you draw lots of
Trump cartoons, Michael.
Michael Ramirez: And if you defy the fundamental beliefs, you see,
my problem with Trump, and Gary is right, um, in two and a half
years, It has just been a disaster.
This this third Obama term.
aNd there's no question that these policies do not work, but there
are there are policy disagreements that I can have with any president.
I did cartoons on Reagan when he was president as well.
The fundamental ideas like these tariffs, the reason why our economy
did so well when Trump took over was because Congress lifted 1.
3 trillion dollars of regulatory burden off the backs of businesses.
That was not a very, you know, that that was a very conservative thing to
do when you had started this trade war.
And I'm opposed to China, and I think we had to go after them.
But when you try to do it with tariffs, you added 900 billion worth of expenses
on the back of American businesses.
China didn't pay that.
I mean, Xi is not elected.
They just they just upped the amount of costs.
For whatever products are in our supply chain.
And if you notice the Biden administration has continued those tariffs because it's
antithetical to free market policies.
These things are about, not about personalities, they're about issues.
And when we disagree, it doesn't matter who that person is.
They're going to be on the receiving end of a cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: So we've got a West Wing Story cartoon movie poster for, Biden
who is dancing and singing, oh, , I don't know that I want to sing this,
Michael Ramirez: Deficit free in America, there's no time free in America.
Everything is free in America.
You can trust me in America and I thought it was a perfect analogy because
frankly, all those things are lies and uh, they can make an entire musical.
of lies that this administration has told the American people.
Daryl Cagle: So now we're moving to Rivers, you've got the dinosaur
museum, and the Joe Biden exhibit in the next room, a whole bunch
of dinosaurs in this museum.
Rivers: Right, right, so it's pretty self explanatory.
It's a bit of a
Gary McCoy: gag.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Mexican scientists suggest more testing be done to determine the
age of the ancient alien artifact.
this is an ancient alien, and Biden says, You wanna do what with that probe?
I worry about these probes.
Michael Ramirez: I wonder how much that artifact made, uh, being
part of the Biden family, too.
A few thousand dollars worth of Chinese stuff underneath
Daryl Cagle: it.
So here you've got Biden in a pot on the stove with a fork stuck
in it, and it says he's done.
What, how has he done?
Rivers: So I consider this kind of a prophetic cartoon in a sense.
A lot of liberals wouldn't, would have disagreed with me at the time.
But it seems to me that, that, there is, a lot of, evidence, implicating him, that is
beginning to kind of leak out, bit by bit.
and by the time we get to 2024, I have a feeling that he may not even make it,
just simply because of what's out there.
So, that's a cartoon that I did over about a year ago, and I'm, I'm
pretty sure, like I said, that, a lot of people would say it's a little
preemptive, but I, I think it's dead on.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, I don't see any money trail leading to Biden yet.
this is in your bubble.
Rivers: Well, there's definitely a lot of evidence, showing that, that there seems
to be some, some of his, uh, influence, um, if you want to call it that, uh,
within the family, that, money seems, as, as Michael alluded to before, there seems
to be, uh, a huge amount of money that has come the Biden's way that, uh, we really
don't know how that How that arrived, what he did for it, you know, it seems that
we are slowly, as I said, drip by drip, getting more and more, uh, further on
down the road to, to seeing that he's not really the kind of guy that the Democrats
should be, um, you know, putting all of their, uh, eggs in, in his basket,
Daryl Cagle: so to speak.
We can only dream.
Michael Ramirez: You know, and, and, uh, frankly, with the 20
million, that's a known quantity.
220 million is there now.
There are no direct links to the president himself.
But that certainly entails closer examination, I think.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got the evil looking puppeteer's hand,
and Marionette Biden says, They told me to tell you you're an
insurrectionist if you see strings.
So...
Explain this to me.
This is, I think, is another bubble cartoon.
Who is the puppeteer controlling Biden?
Well, that's the
Rivers: thing.
I don't think anybody really knows who the puppeteer is.
I think there's been some, you know, talk that it's, that it's Obama's third term.
Um, that it might be Obama, but Joe Biden is always Is this
Daryl Cagle: just because you, you feel So clearly Biden is demented
that there must be somebody controlling him, because otherwise,
how could he make rational choices?
Well,
Rivers: it seems, as I was saying, it seems to me that, that he
seems to have a lot of handlers, people that tell him what to do.
and we don't know who those people are.
When it, when, when the Easter Bunny tells him, you know, go this way,
or when he says they're telling me to answer questions from this
journalist or that journalist, well, I want to know, who are they?
Um, those are the handlers.
Gary McCoy: I'm sorry.
Yeah, I'm sorry, Rivers.
That's Daryl.
That's who Rivers is referring to the people when Joe Biden at the end of
a press conference says, Well, I'm gonna get in trouble if I say anything
else, or they gave they gave me a list here of who I'm supposed to call on.
There's somebody behind him that has authority over him because he explicitly
references some other Entity that said, I'm gonna get in trouble if I do this
Daryl Cagle: to my ear.
That just sounds kind of crazy.
Well,
Michael Ramirez: frankly speaking, if he had the Easter Bunny in his
administration, he'd be one of the more competent members, of his administration.
. Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here he is riding the giant banana.
Biden is, and he says, hi yo, banana republic, because that's because,
of course, we're on a fast track to becoming a banana republic
with all of his poor decisions.
Rivers: Well, I, you know, that, that cartoon was drawn right after Trump was,
was indicted for about the 30, 000th time.
So, um.
It was, it's just one of those, you know, why, why are they going after Trump?
it seems it's very convenient in terms of timing.
they seem to be weaponizing the justice system.
So that's where that comes from.
Daryl Cagle: And you, blame Biden for that.
I, I would see that as the system just, operating without
his having his hand on it.
Rivers: I'm not too sure that's accurate though, Daryl.
I think that there's been some reports that, that Biden's kind of been
in contact with certain agencies.
And I guess I should maybe review before I start talking.
But I do recall a few months ago reading that there was some
communication between Biden and the different justice departments
regarding, you know, going after Trump.
So, yeah.
I'd have to look that up again and see where that was.
Michael Ramirez: I think, I think actually Biden has probably been
laying off, uh, what's been going on.
because when the other team is, being self destructive, uh,
you just want to stay out of it.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Biden sniffing the butt of a giant dog.
Rivers: I went there.
I went there.
Daryl Cagle: And the dog says, dude, you have a problem.
Remember, I'm a dog and I'm telling you this.
So, he has a reputation for sniffing people, and so he's sniffing a dog.
Is that the gag?
Rivers: Yeah, that's, it says, it's exactly that, right?
So, because, you know, you've seen him, you've probably been on social
media and you see, Videos of him sniffing different people, one after
another, children and, and young women.
And, and of course it's kind of, uh, kind of creepy.
Daryl Cagle: he is a creepy sniffer and here, um, you know, we did a whole
podcast on how you oppose aid to Ukraine.
And, this is, a cartoon depicting that.
You've got, him as George Washington crossing the Delaware on the Ukraine boat
and one of the people in the boat says, I thought he was an American president.
they have the Ukraine flag.
Um.
Well, somebody
Rivers: pointed out, you know, he seems to be more concerned with the Ukraine
border than he is with the American border and, certainly a lot of tax
dollars have ended up in the Ukraine.
So I suppose you could make an argument for that.,
Daryl Cagle: I thought this cartoon was great.
You've got Biden as the musician sawing Uncle Sam in half, and Uncle
Sam's limbs are, are coming out of the box in a way that is funny, and, and
Biden says, want to see how this ends?
Tune in again in 2024 and see how I play.
Pull a rabbit out of one of Sam's orifices.
that's a, that's a very funny cartoon.
I like how, too, how when you cut, Uncle Sam in half, his torso just has
this big bone in the middle of it.
Rivers: Right.
Didn't want to get too graphic.
Daryl Cagle: Great looking cartoon.
Michael Ramirez: That really is a wonderful cartoon.
Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Biden's golfing behind a giant football player
as a new football season begins.
Biden is looking a bit like Mr.
Magoo, not knowing what he's doing, about to swing his club
into this giant football player.
Is this a dementia
Michael Ramirez: cartoon?
Rivers: A little bit, yeah.
And then it was the start of the NFL and I was kind of excited about that so I
decided to mix the metaphor a little bit.
yeah.
Michael Ramirez: Works well.
Yeah, it
Daryl Cagle: works really well.
You know, big football player, newspapers love big football players.
Even when you mix them with dementia.
Alright, here you've got the, the FBI and they're pulling the cover
off of all of the stinking garbage.
The FBI guy says, when you joined the FBI, did you imagine having
to spend a good part of your career covering up for the Bidens?
how is the FBI covering up for the Bidens?
Rivers: Okay, well we can start with the um...
The Hunter Biden, laptop story that was covered up by the FBI.
They seem to have known, that the evidence was there and they, they did what we
came up, what they came out with was 51 agencies had reported that the, Hunter
Biden laptop was, Russian disinformation because they like to use the Russians.
It's kind of their go to.
So that's where this cartoon came from is that it seems to me that the FBI
does spend a lot of time covering up for the Bidens, but, uh, you know,
that's cause I live in a bubble.
Daryl Cagle: And, uh, here you have the elephant on top of the
Biden corruption and evidence.
He thinks I'd do something if only I had more evidence.
And there's so much Biden corruption evidence.
another bubble cartoon.
Mm
Michael Ramirez: hmm.
Rivers: Yeah.
Well, again, you know, I, I see, uh, you know, as, as Michael alluded
to earlier, again, that, that 20 million, uh, there's, there's...
Lots there, if you're looking.
Uh, the question is, does the media and, and does the Justice Department
have the desire to actually go after these stories in the same
vigor that they went after Trump?
Daryl Cagle: This is interesting, you've got Uncle Sam digging through, uh, at the
edge of the cliff, about to fall down from the cliff, and Biden says, keep digging,
you'll eventually hit pay dirt, and then it's nothing but blue skies after that,
which is funny.
Rivers: So it's a gag, yeah, it's a bit of a gag, you know,
it's, it's the, you know, U.
S.
is kind of.
Digging its way into deeper and deeper issues and troubles.
Uh, and, uh, yeah, we're not going the right way.
Daryl Cagle: So Gary, we are up to you.
Yay.
I know we're pushing up against your deadline.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
So,
uh, especially since I don't like my drawing and, uh, I'm not the draftsman
that Rivers and Mike are, so what I, what I do is I try to make up.
for that by being a better citizen.
And, uh,
Daryl Cagle: you're, you're a better
citizen.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
Okay.
A model partner to my community.
Okay.
So anyway, I hate this drawing, but let's go through it,
sir.
Daryl Cagle: So you've got, uh, Biden at the desk and, uh, his, two, secret
service guys are getting bit by his, his.
Dog that famously bites and he says, sir, nevermind the border.
We'd like to request that a wall be built around commander.
just
Gary McCoy: a gag cartoon.
Of course.
That's just.
That's kind of my, my thing.
Plus, I try to keep in mind what you say, Daryl about the editors and, and how I
Daryl Cagle: don't want to be in the position of telling
you to not have opinions.
I mean, cartoonists should have opinions and we should, be twisting
the arms of editors to print opinions.
I do.
I
Gary McCoy: know.
And, you know, I wish I could, you know, Mike and Rivers hit the topic
so hard, and I do in some of these cartoons, perhaps, but, you know, when,
when you can Cross reference to topical things going on at the same time.
It's probably an easy go to for cartoonists.
Michael Ramirez: And you know what?
I think, I think that, uh, I think that cartoon hilariously brings
up the context of the border wall.
And another event that's happening in the news at the same time.
So he's saying that Biden has done nothing with the border wall.
could he at least board, build a border around commander?
I think, you know, one thing I loved about Ronald Reagan was his sense of humor.
And humor is a very, very, very powerful weapon to reach a much larger
audience with your weapon, uh, with your, with your, uh, with your message.
And I think, one thing I love about Gary's cartoons, and I don't see
them a lot, Gary, but when I do, they always make me laugh out loud.
there's a...
We want to be the catalyst for thought.
We want to bring certain, issues that I think very, very important issues to
our society, to the viewer's attention.
And, uh, you know, Gary does it very well with his, with his sense of humor.
And I actually like your drawings, Gary.
I think they're Thanks Mike.
Daryl Cagle: I like your drawings too, Gary.
I agree.
So you've got Biden with his feet glued to the floor and his advisor is saying,
Sir, it's what environmental protesters do but gluing your feet to the floor
isn't the best way to hold on to office.
Gary McCoy: obviously I'm just like, again, cross referencing things that
were topical and I think this was around the time when the Burning Man
thing was going on out in the desert and all those people were blocking
people wanting to get through and, uh, some people just got so, so fed up.
They just started dragging them off the road.
And it's kind of what I would imagine me doing also.
Michael Ramirez: Frankly, it may be the only way that Biden holds on to office.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Well, he's holding on to other things here.
And, uh, she says, hands off my, uh, Expletive it, uh, the Secret Service
guys say he's not just a gun grabber.
Gary McCoy: yeah, sometimes I wish I wasn't Joe Biden
Daryl Cagle: because you can get away with grabbing.
Although,
Gary McCoy: you know, my wife probably wouldn't be too
thrilled about it, but yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
You've got the military before Biden.
The drill sergeant says drop and give me 20.
And after, drop and give me the name of a Disney princess or a preferred
pronoun.
All right, uh, here you've got Biden talking to the kid who's
thinking Ku Klux Klan hood.
Uh, and Biden says, don't worry, if you can't get into Harvard because
of the Supreme Court ruling against affirmative action, I'll give you a
job holding a lantern in my front yard.
So, is that funny just because you're calling him a bigot?
Gary McCoy: That, to me, it's not so much funny as just pointing out,
Biden's, you know, veiled racism.
Daryl Cagle: He
has had some gaffes that got him into some trouble.
Gary McCoy: Yeah, and you had told me subsequent to this cartoon, Daryl,
about how Klans you know, Klansmen hoods you know, won't make it into, uh, the
paper, so this one probably never ran,
I guess.
Daryl Cagle: Well, there's always somebody to print anything, but,
Klan hoods are like, uh, swastikas, editors don't like them and the
cartoons just don't get picked up.
Gary McCoy: Yeah, and Biden just had another recent gaffe.
I forget who it was.
I don't know.
It might have been L.
J.
L.
Cool.
J.
L.
But, uh, when he said, you know, this boy, the guy's like 50 something years old.
One of his, you know, reoccurring kind of racial faux pas that, uh, that doesn't
really get much, uh, much media attention.
Michael Ramirez: So, Daryl, do you have like a, do you release A list of metaphors
that your cartoonist shouldn't use.
Like on a monthly basis.
I don't
Daryl Cagle: wanna tell the cartoonists what they should or shouldn't.
Of course I'm not, but I do tell them what gets printed and doesn't get printed.
I sent the cartoonists, pretty much weekly, uh all the cartoon, the top
10 cartoons that were reprinted that week that editors chose, and the
top 10 cartoons from us tend to be.
equal in the amount of papers that print them to all the rest of the
cartoons, like another hundred cartoons.
So I guess,
Michael Ramirez: I guess my, my next question would be, do you
guys listen to what Daryl says?
No, you don't have to answer that.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I
Gary McCoy: can,
Daryl Cagle: I can tell you, I don't get much, too much people listening
to that, but, I'm sorry, what
Gary McCoy: were you saying?
Well, I, I know, I, I've changed, I mean, since you've sent out, Daryl.
I have changed, somewhat in what I submit because, you know, I don't
want to just submit a ton of stuff that's never going to get picked up.
So, and, and
again,
Daryl Cagle: There is a, part of, being an effective, cartoonist is
getting people to see your cartoons.
Absolutely.
And, uh, if you could, if you could make a compromise, like saying, well, I
don't really need blood in this cartoon.
It does the same thing without blood and then get it printed
by twice as many places.
that's not a bad compromise to make.
Michael Ramirez: Uh, you know, I, I do agree with that.
I mean, I, I don't do controversial cartoons for the sake of controversy,
just like I don't do a humorous cartoon just for the sake of humor.
and there are certain subjects that you just don't want to do
because the controversy surrounding.
The placement within the cartoon will overshadow the
point you're trying to make.
Because obviously, we're trying to make a point.
but, uh,
Daryl Cagle: One problem that we have is anti Semitic cartoons,
particularly from around the world.
And, I've tried to lay down, some rules for the international
cartoonists to follow to make their cartoons not antisemitic, and I
do kill the antisemitic cartoons.
Um, there are some basic rules that I think are helpful, just
as you wouldn't draw, sexually explicit, things in an editorial
cartoon and expect it to be printed.
Likewise, some of these things that are natural, go to kind of, things
that pop into artists minds, like drawing Israelis as Nazis, persecuting
the Palestinians in, Gaza, Auschwitz.
Uh, we don't accept that, and we need to explain to the cartoonists that, uh,
and, you know, there's a range of those things from slight, to, uh, heavy,
and, cartoonists should know that some things cross the line and some things
are inappropriate and some things, we'll tolerate, but they simply mean your
cartoon's not going to get printed.
And that's another way of being an ineffective cartoonist.
Michael Ramirez: You know, I'm a big believer in freedom of speech,
that people can say and do anything.
That does not give you the freedom to be insulated from
the consequences of what you do.
Yes, I'm sure that, uh, that Gary and Rivers are like me.
We think about our audience and how, how the, uh, the cartoon is going to
be read out there by our readership.
And, uh, you know, I don't want to offend anybody.
Just to make a point, the point is the most important thing.
I mean, I always think of political cartoons like, a Super Bowl ad.
You've got five seconds to to catch their attention, five seconds to make the pitch.
But instead of selling a product, we're selling ideas.
If you offend their sensibilities with something that really doesn't have much
to do with the content of your point, then you lose the opportunity to make the sale.
Daryl Cagle: It's a good point.
And, uh, you can, judge how much you want to offend.
I recall, uh, one of your cartoons when you were on our, Cagle.com you
drew a dead fetus in an electric chair.
And we got more angry mail for that than I think any cartoon we've ever had on
Cagle.Com People were just outraged.
But, you know, we, we ran it, and I'm not sure that you would have
been disappointed with the outrage.
Michael Ramirez: Well, I, I don't, I don't recall that cartoon.
I've been picketed by everybody, sometimes at the same time.
I managed to offend everybody at some time, but, you know, it's sort of like why
I would never use Muhammad in a cartoon.
Because the controversy that's surrounding the image...
It would overshadow any point that I'm making, so I have a tendency to try
to sidestep those, but I'm not afraid to, uh, like the fist bump cartoon,
like the cartoon that I just did on Hamas with the bloody teddy bear.
sometimes you have to, to get right up to the edge of the
limit to make a powerful point.
I think that's worth it.
Daryl Cagle: Well, if you're going to draw something that's going to
be very offensive to a minority of readers, I think it's worth thinking
about what's the value of being offensive, and can I say this in another
Michael Ramirez: way?
Right, and let me say that I'm not trying to be offensive.
It may be shocking to some people, but politics is an emotional thing.
You know, when people write me hate mail and stuff, I like it.
They're like the medals that you get in a battle.
But you're not doing it to offend people, you're trying to convince them.
And, you know, I'm not drawing offensive cartoons, I'm drawing
powerful cartoons sometimes.
Daryl Cagle: Well, sometimes there are cartoons that are drawn to be
offensive to show that they can do it.
Michael Ramirez: Yeah,
I would discourage that.
Daryl Cagle: gotta wrap it up, Daryl.
Okay, I guess I'm gonna wrap it up.
Uh, any last comments, gentlemen?
I just
Gary McCoy: wanna say, uh, I had a great time.
It's, it's fascinating listening to, these guys talk and kind of analyze
stuff and, uh, it's always fun.
You, you, you
Daryl Cagle: guys were all very, uh, civilized and we
didn't have much, argument.
Well
Gary McCoy: bring a liberal, another liberal on sometime,
Daryl
Michael Ramirez: Well, I'm a big, you know, I
Rivers: I was just gonna say, I'm a big fan of both these guys and so there's
a lot of respect there and, and, uh, I really appreciate Michael coming on.
Today, because of course, he's outside of the Cagle uh, group,
but, uh, just an awesome cartoonist.
And it's been great to, to hear from you today and you're very articulate.
and of course, Gary and I are friends from way back and it's always good to see my
Gary McCoy: friend Gary.
And same with Mike.
Mike and I go way back and yeah, it's a mutual love
Michael Ramirez: thing here.
McCoy brothers are almost part of my extended family, it seems like.
I look forward to seeing you without a mask at some point.
You know, I've come from a place in the political spectrum.
I'm probably to the right of both of you, although I'm a guy
who will go after everything.
But.
You can vehemently disagree with the politics behind a cartoon and still
love the cartoon or the cartoonist.
You know, I, I don't like to, uh, I don't like to tear down other people's work.
but I, I, I'd like to say that politics is a personal thing and everybody, uh, should
be emotional about, about how they feel.
And, and, uh, just because I don't agree with what's behind the cartoon.
Um, it doesn't mean that the cartoon is not comprehensible or not a powerful
vehicle to make a point of view.
And, you know, I like, uh, both these guys are fabulous cartoonists.
And, uh, I'm honored to be on this.
Daryl Cagle: I really appreciate your coming on.
And, uh, I'm going to get two podcasts out of this.
So, uh.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Gary McCoy: Okay, I got to run.
Love all you guys and see y'all soon.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Very good.
Well, let me say that, everyone should remember to subscribe to
the Caglecast wherever you're watching or listening today.
Please subscribe.
Our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions.
So if you don't see the cartoons, go to Cagle.com com or Apple
podcasts or YouTube or Spotify.
to see the video podcast rather than just the sound.
And, I, I kind of like PodCruncher That's my favorite one, but we're
on all the platforms and, thank you for being here and, Michael,
I'm delighted that you came today.
Michael Ramirez: Sounds good.
Thanks a lot.
We'll talk soon.