Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast,
where we're all about political cartoons.
And today we have three great cartoonists to talk about
their favorite Trump cartoons.
Our first cartoonist is Steve Sack, who has been the brilliant
cartoonist for the Minneapolis Star Tribune for close to 40 years.
Steve Sack: More than 40 years.
Daryl Cagle: More than 40 years.
Steve has won the Pulitzer prize and just about every award an
editorial cartoonist can win.
And he has been the standout cartoonist in our Cagle Cartoons syndicate for
many years until he recently retired, which I am still crying about.
Thanks for being here, Steve.
Happy to be here.
And this is, one of Steve's, lovely cartoons with, Trump and the big
lie kicking Liz Cheney out of the nest of little hungry birds.
I have to describe all these cartoons because this is also an audio podcast.
So this is a wonderful cartoon, Steve.
Steve Sack: I like to make critters.
Daryl Cagle: Your critters are so cute and your cartoons are so biting and harsh.
The cuteness just makes them go down like a, sugar coated pill.
And here you have all of the butt kissing, elephants.
Kissing the Big Lie Trump butt and they said there is no bottom.
this is hilarious.
This is one of those extra cute, extra nasty cartoons.
Steve Sack: And it's a cartoon that you could run just about any day of the year.
Daryl Cagle: our next cartoonist is Pat Bagley.
Pat has been the brilliant cartoonist for the Salt Lake Tribune in Utah since 1979.
And he has won a ton of awards, including the Herblock Award.
And he is also a shining star in our profession.
Good to be here.
This is a wonderful one with Trump climbing out of the sewer and tracking
all the muck over the presidential seal.
It's just a beautiful cartoon, a beautiful composition.
Pat Bagley: So I did that probably a month or two after he got into office.
Daryl Cagle: That is just a great cartoon.
Here you have him stoking the fires of hatred and a giant
furnace shoveling in the hate.
I think that's great.
Pat Bagley: Giant MAGA furnace, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
This is Steve Sack's version of KAL.
Steve also does sculptures.
And KAL, it's a great pleasure to have you with us today..
KAL: Laughter.
Steve Sack: Well, too much hair.
Daryl Cagle: Oh dear.
this is one of yours, KAL.
This is, Trump, Godzilla.
is that Cassidy Hutchinson?
KAL: It is.
It is.
Daryl Cagle: KAL is the pen name for Kevin Kallaugher, who
has also won tons of awards.
KAL has drawn for many decades for the Baltimore Sun and The Economist magazine
in London, where he has drawn and painted over 150 of their magazine covers.
KAL's cartoons appear everywhere, and KAL is the first cartoonist
outside of our syndication group that I've invited to appear on our
podcast, because I'm a KAL fan.
So thank you for coming.
KAL: Oh, it's so nice to
Daryl Cagle: Here's another one of your cartoons that I thought was great.
Jumping off the high dive and doing a belly flop into the poll pool.
But Fox likes him and the other stations don't.
He gets a 10 from Fox.
That's funny.
Steve Sack: That's a beautiful drawing.
KAL: Thank you.
Pat Bagley: So you, you captured, you captured the Trump news host perfectly.
KAL: Thank you.
Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: So we're going to go through a bunch of Steve Sack cartoons.
And, I call these favorite Trump cartoons because they're
my favorite Trump cartoons.
I picked your cartoons, Steve.
And this is a big Trump nuclear mushroom cloud blowing up the status quo.
Steve Sack: That one was not my favorite.
That was one of three cartoons I drew for election day.
When we didn't know, it was so close we didn't know who
was going to be the winner.
So I had a really nice cartoon for Hillary winning.
And then I had this cartoon in case the worst happened.
And I had another cartoon in case we didn't know.
And our the paper ran the cartoon with the unknown, cartoon in it.
And it wasn't until the next morning, in the middle of the morning, that
they substituted it with this one.
And of the three, this I thought was the, poorest quality.
Probably because I couldn't stand the idea of that guy
winning.
Daryl Cagle: I liked it.
this one made me laugh out loud.
This is just hilarious.
You've got the presidential seal.
It says the seal of this president.
And there's Lindsey Graham as a seal honking.
Yes, boss.
that's just hilarious.
Steve Sack: Well, thank you.
There's, there's a million cartoons about, you know, using the presidential
seal and it's always a challenge to find a new way of doing it.
Daryl Cagle: Here, you've got the, the Kremlin hacking department
and it is, uh, onion dome topped, Donald Trump in the Kremlin.
I think that's wonderful.
KAL: That's fantastic.
Daryl Cagle: Beautiful.
They had Trump in a lava lamp, shape shifting positions, free floating
conspiracies, oozing racism, fact twisted into slippery blobs of
incoherent goo, and oddly mesmerizing.
I think that's wonderful.
Steve Sack: Yeah, that was during the presidential campaign
when he was first running.
And I really couldn't believe that he was gaining support.
You know, the guy has been vile from day one, and he just gets worse and worse.
And yet, those folks back him, and they keep supporting him.
It just drives me crazy.
Pat Bagley: I will never understand anybody who supports Trump.
I just, I just absolutely don't get it.
KAL: Well, I gotta say that I agree with those guys, but that's
the best lava lamp I've seen
Daryl Cagle: I can't recall any other lava lamp cartoon.
Did you do a lava lamp cartoon, KAL?
Pat Bagley: I think I, I think I did, but my editor said this is not a
lava lamp, so I had to redo it again.
And I can't remember what it was about, but I have done a lava lamp.
Daryl Cagle: Well, here's Trump, in America.
America is his locker room for his locker room talk.
And he's, towel snapping, Uncle Sam with his vulgarity.
I, think this is great.
Steve Sack: Now that one was drawn, when the, Access Hollywood tape
came out and the big excuse he made was, , it was just locker room talk.
that's what inspired this.
Daryl Cagle: So this is Mara Lego, and he is such a sad little victim.
even when he's playing with all his Legos.
Steve Sack: Yeah, I always like to do things with toys and
animals and things like that.
I like to make images that are fun to look
at.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this is fun.
I also like the movie parodies.
I've noticed, in looking at the stats, movie parody cartoons almost
always, uh outperform everything else.
They, they float up to number one.
readers and editor, well, I, we only track what editors like, uh, editors,
just love the movie parody cartoons.
Pat Bagley: Well, we
all, we all did a Barbie
Oppenheimer.
We all did something about Oppenheimer.
Didn't we?
I
think I did.
By the way, both are great movies.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Here's a Star Wars one.
Also, Star Wars, they just, eat up every Star Wars metaphor.
And there's a couple of guys out there that buy the originals
of the Star Wars cartoons.
I get a call when Star Wars cartoons are out.
Boy, I
Pat Bagley: I think we're all working on, iPads and...
It's all digital, right?
Daryl Cagle: yeah.
Pat Bagley: So the, so the originals really are just ones and zeros.
It is, uh...
Steve Sack: Yeah, I sell mine a nickel a pixel.
Pat Bagley: Do I miss the originals?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, I mean, that's a lot to lose.
Well, I
Pat Bagley: mean, the thing is, you can go back and you can
correct things, and the reason we all do it is because it's better.
It's just better.
The first time I
Steve Sack: tried drawing digitally, I instantly switched, and I never
did an original cartoon again.
KAL: When you look at Steve Sacks work, you completely understand why digital
painting is such a good way to go.
He uses new textures and special effects that make them come alive.
And I just love looking at each one of them.
Steve Sack: Well, gosh.
Daryl Cagle: This is wonderful.
Here's a Star Trek one, Operation Warp Reality.
Our lifelong mission to explore strange new loopholes to seek out new deductions
and avoidance opportunities to baldly dodge taxes like no one has dodged before.
This is the Trump form 1040.
This is hilarious.
Trump and his kids.
Steve Sack: That's when his taxes were leaked.
he didn't pay taxes for, what, a decade?
Daryl Cagle: I also noticed Star Trek cartoons are, like,
the wildly popular ones, too.
And these movie cartoons are just, crazy popular.
Here's, Tangled and Trump combing his hair of lies that are, tying up
Pompeo and Esper and the Republicans.
This is great.
Steve Sack: I don't remember doing that many movie and TV cartoons.
Daryl Cagle: Here you got the QAnon shaman, he's in jail and the guard
says, "Ever think about what it was that landed you here in the first place?"
And it's Trump's image as he's crossing out all the days in jail.
This is
fun.
KAL: Yeah.
We're lucky that he has such a strong profile.
Steve is great at showing Trump in all its different machinations.
Daryl Cagle: Trump has so many cartoony elements.
You could get away with just one of those little elements
and it can define all of them.
All you need is a tie or a little wisp of yellow hair and
Steve Sack: those little puffer fish lips.
Daryl Cagle: Yes, you could draw him just with the puffer fish lips.
Pat Bagley: Who votes for this guy who, puts on bronzer every
day and His hair is just bizarre.
It's just absolutely bizarre.
And he's just so ugly.
His followers think that he's, Charlton Heston Moses character.
I don't get it.
I don't understand
Daryl Cagle: it.
Here, Steve has the Trump stomping the sour grapes into wine and
the drunk Republican drinking it.
it's fascinating to me that Trump's personality is so focused on being
a victim because I wouldn't think that most people think of, victims as
somebody that they're particularly.
eager to vote for.
I mean, we have sympathy for victims, but you don't have sympathy for Trump, the
victim, yet they want to vote for him.
I think that's, crazy.
There's kind of this attitude among the Fox viewers that they
see themselves as victims and they just revel in that victimhood.
Steve Sack: Oh, they love that.
I'm being indicted for you.
That whole thing.
I'm a victim and you're a victim.
Daryl Cagle: So, what's up with that?
I do see a lot of, victim angles in editorial cartoons and it
just seems like victimhood is what defines the whole Trumpness.
Pat Bagley: Oh, true.
And here's the thing, is that he, this billionaire, who supposedly
is richer than anybody on earth, is shilling for dollars from these
people who are on social security and welfare, and they're giving them money.
Again, I just don't understand the whole mentality.
Daryl Cagle: Give them money like you would give money to a charity for victims.
Pat Bagley: yeah,
KAL: it's a classic ploy of populism but what's different now is, is that with
social media and television and he being a kind of a television star, he can amplify
it in a way that's never been seen before.
Steve Sack: Exactly.
Daryl Cagle: Another thing that editorial cartoonists like to do
a lot is, statues of Lincoln.
And, here you've got, the Lincoln statue being, hammered out into a Trump statue,
the party formerly known as the Lincoln.
This is great.
I love these Lincoln statue cartoons.
KAL: I hate Lincoln statue cartoons.
I
Pat Bagley: think this is why, why Steve did this cartoon is because Trump
is always comparing himself to all these historical figures in his view.
And in the view of a lot of his followers, he's the best president ever, or maybe the
best president since George Washington.
Or maybe the best president since Abraham Lincoln.
It just depends on how he's feeling that day.
again, where do these people get their education?
Where do they learn this stuff?
Daryl Cagle: Okay, here you got Mount Rushmore.
Three of them are wearing, sacks over their heads and one of them is wearing
a Groucho mask to, obscure their, identity so that they're not associated
with the Trump statue on the end.
that's very funny.
Pat Bagley: This, this is kind of a throwaway cartoon for Steve Sack, right?
Steve Sack: I don't remember what triggered this.
I think there were people talking about how he should be on Mount Rushmore.
And there were actually, small statues that people could buy showing
Mount Rushmore with him on it.
I think this was just my reaction to that.
Daryl Cagle: Here he is conducting the symphony of American carnage
as everything crashes around him.
Steve Sack: Well, that was my January 6 cartoon.
When all of that was happening, and we had to comment on that, it was
one of these tragedies that happen that we all have to do a cartoon
on, and you've got to find a way of expressing it, of how you feel about it.
And this is how I saw it.
Daryl Cagle: That's great.
KAL: You know, Daryl, you said that we should be arguing.
And it's so hard to argue when you look at these cartoons.
They're all beautiful.
They're well executed.
They're funny.
Funnier than my cartoons.
They're very funny.
of course, I agree with them.
Not everybody will.
But
Pat Bagley: It's not that we agree with them.
They're true.
This is factual.
This is what's happening.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you don't have to argue.
You could just shower each other with compliments.
KAL: Okay.
I was going to say that they have to shower me with the same amount
of compliments I shower upon them as a part of the deal, right?
Daryl Cagle: I will edit everything so that you get equal compliments.
Okay, so here we've got Trump as the Terminator, another movie cartoon.
He says, I'll be back.
That's hilarious.
Steve Sack: This cartoon was done right after Biden was certified.
And if you remember, a lot of Republicans were turning against Trump at first.
you know, look at Lindsey Graham.
He said, I'm done.
I'm done with this guy.
And a lot of Republican leaders were.
Ready to move on and I did this cartoon because I didn't believe that Trump was
gone and He sure enough came roaring back.
Pat Bagley: No, no, no, He's got it.
Is that exactly right?
one of my bosses came to me after I was doing a anti trump cartoon after
he had lost Because he's so done.
He's just done.
And this guy's a Republican, so He's just not going to be back.
He's, he's over.
And I'm thinking, do I tell this guy he's my boss?
Do I tell
him he's wrong?
You just let it slide.
Okay.
I want to see more.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, here's Donald J.
Trump presidential papers and of course it's toilet paper, stuffing
up the toilet and the pipes at the National Archives Museum.
The lady says, that explains
his weird obsession
with flushing toilets 15 times.
You know, when he was complaining about the low flow toilets and how
you have to flush them 15 times, We got so many toilet cartoons.
It was just a flood of toilet cartoons.
And they were all good.
I mean, cartoonists love toilet cartoons.
Pat Bagley: Well, we do.
That's true.
KAL: And how did the editors respond to them?
Daryl Cagle: I Don't remember tracking toilet cartoons.
Editors don't like bodily fluids, but you've got toilets without bodily fluids.
Steve Sack: I'm not big on drawing bodily
fluids.
Daryl Cagle: boy, we get so many bodily fluids and especially,
blood, when there's war, allusions, the bloody hands, the blood
Steve Sack: I do blood, I do blood, I do blood, but other oozings I, I prefer
to avoid.
Daryl Cagle: Editors don't, like to print blood.
Blood in a cartoon kills the cartoon.
It's like, having Hitler or a Ku Klux Klan hood.
no matter how well deserved, that is in the cartoon, they just don't want it.
But I don't notice them avoiding toilets unless there's bodily fluids.
This is a wonderful cartoon.
Trump University, he's at the, cheat and grab the junk machine and the
machine is grabbing his wallet.
KAL: Oh my God.
Daryl Cagle: That's, that's wonderful.
KAL: I love it.
It is superb.
The texture of the, you know, the hand, which is, you know, the device that's
normally inside of these machines.
It has all the grippy fingers that, you know, feel so familiar,
yet it's picking the pocket.
It is magnificent.
Daryl Cagle: That is magnificent,
Steve.
Steve Sack: Well, thank you.
I love those machines.
Daryl Cagle: Have you ever...
Steve Sack: I like to do toys.
Daryl Cagle: Have you ever won anything in one of those machines?
Are you kidding?
I don't think anybody has.
Okay, we're switching to Pat!
Pat Bagley: Here's the end of, an era.
Daryl Cagle: Show us your dinosaur shirt.
Oh, okay.
Dinosaurs are wonderful for editorial cartoonists.
Pat Bagley: True.
Do you see the eyeglasses?
On the dinosaur?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Pat Bagley: Okay, so this was done by Riley Black, who is a
paleontologist out here living in Utah.
And Utah is heaven for paleontologists because there are bones everywhere.
And so, I live dinosaurs too.
And here are the Republicans in their natural habitat where they're picking
money and they're giving each other money.
Money is the root of all Republicans.
And here they are, and Trump is screaming down as this giant asteroid that's going
to destroy the whole ecosystem, I hope.
Steve Sack: That cartoon was overly hopeful.
Pat Bagley: I agree.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Trump with his Sharpie marker, and his Sharpie
marker is so funny and, you can almost draw Trump just by drawing a Sharpie
marker, and, he's here, crossing out we the people of the Constitution with "ME".
That's wonderful.
Pat Bagley: Well, he was just caught this last week in one of his many court
cases, arguing that he didn't have to.
defend and protect the Constitution.
He didn't have to uphold it.
His lawyers were making some weird legal argument that he wasn't legally
obligated to defend the Constitution.
I'm saying this and you're thinking, Oh no, he's just repeating
stuff he hears on the Internet.
Look it up.
His lawyers were arguing before One of these court cases is that he doesn't
have to defend the Constitution.
Daryl Cagle: He's sworn to defend the Constitution.
Pat Bagley: Oh!
He's sworn to do a lot of stuff, but does he do it?
He promises he won't.
Did he ever tell the truth?
No!
He's so slippery.
Daryl Cagle: But you know, that's one of the things that
conservatives say all the time.
Look it up.
Check it for yourself.
Pat Bagley: Oh, yeah, research.
Okay, this is...
Daryl Cagle: Sometimes you sound conservative, Pat.
So here you've got Fairy Trump flying over his, boxes of top secret
documents saying you're declassified, and you're declassified, and you're
declassified, and you're declassified.
The declassification fairy, that's very funny.
Pat Bagley: the thing is, the rules don't apply to him.
Daryl Cagle: Well, his declassifications are just as real as fairies are.
Pat Bagley: Exactly.
Okay.
Steve Sack: Well, he said he can declassify documents just in his mind.
Pat Bagley: Okay.
Which is, he's an absolute lunatic.
Which is fine, we have lots of lunatics.
But he's got, the Republican Party in his pocket.
Who believe pretty much everything he says.
You've got two thirds of Republicans thinking that the
election was stolen in 2020.
And it's a lie.
You've got an entire political party believing a lie.
An absolute, provable lie.
This is dangerous times.
This is bad.
what do you do as a cartoonist to expose just how bad it is?
We do our best.
We try.
KAL: Well, it is important, of course, that all of these cartoons are just little
tiny specks of sand in a whole sandstorm.
You know, that you have to keep on doing it.
Do your little bit.
Keep on going.
Don't get discouraged because our voices are important and they
help in the whole conversation.
Pat Bagley: Okay, and it's also good to be on the record.
When people look back on this, they go, Oh, how come people didn't realize this?
They go, Well, people did.
Some people understood what was going on at the time.
So we're establishing a record of what happens.
That's part of what we do.
Daryl Cagle: This is wonderful.
It's the MAGA dog, drinking out of the Fox News toilet.
this is like, an icon for our times.
Pat Bagley: This is one of those that's not going to be misunderstood.
I think it's pretty clear cut from what you're
Steve Sack: That's a perfect
Pat Bagley: cartoon.
You can draw a bright line between the establishment of Fox News in
1996 and the erosion of trust in the institutions that make us a nation.
they started saying, We're the truth, don't believe anybody else.
And they started going after everybody.
And it's since 1996, started happening a little bit before Rush Limbaugh,
but since 1996 and the introduction of Fox News and right wing media.
the country's just gone downhill.
It's not because of Republicans or Democrats.
It's because of right wing media.
Because they just lie.
They just lie all the time.
Daryl Cagle: I do notice that, editors are reluctant to
print cartoons about Fox News.
Of course, Most of the cartoonists, are liberal and they love to draw cartoons
about Fox News and there's a whole lot of them that just don't get printed
and that's very frustrating, I think.
But in general, newspapers, journalists are fascinated by, any kind of reporting
about journalism and they, they play that up but they don't print stuff
that's critical of other news outlets.
And, I find that disappointing.
Steve Sack: Well, Daryl, are they also reluctant to print cartoons
about mainstream media, MSM?
I see a lot of those by the conservative cartoonists.
Daryl Cagle: You do.
And, you know, back in the day, Everybody used to think that since there are
so many conservative leaning papers, because most papers are small and
rural or suburban and tend to have more conservative audiences, fewer papers are
big and have, a, urban liberal audience.
we used to think that the fewer conservative cartoonists got reprinted
more than the liberal cartoonists.
And, in recent years, that is no longer true.
what happens is all of the editors reprint the same cartoons, which are
cartoons that express no opinion at all, and that are just funny little gags.
so the conservative and the liberal papers Print the same cartoons.
so, it's just very frustrating for us cartoonists in this environment
as, as newspapers grow more timid over time as their elderly audience
shrinks and their circulation declines.
Pat Bagley: No, I wondered about that too, because we're controversial, but
we're supposed to be controversial.
And we've always been controversial.
So, why in the last 10 years, 15 years, Has, being
controversial, been a bad thing.
it's just happened fairly recently.
Daryl Cagle: There's a disconnect between supply and demand
with, editorial cartoons.
What we want to supply is not what they demand.
It's frustrating.
Pat Bagley: It goes along with my theory that right wing media has
screwed up everything.
That's what they do.
Daryl Cagle: Pat, this is a great cartoon.
Sign of the Times.
You got the immigration, people, running sign and the, Trump 2020, MAGA people,
chasing them with Signs of the Times.
Pat Bagley: So I grew up in, um, around San Diego, which is right next to Mexico.
Back, geez, when I was a kid, back then about
illegal immigration.
But the thing is, the growers, the farmers, the builders, the construction
people needed labor from Mexico.
And so, these people are coming up to work, they're coming
up to, get a better life.
And that was it.
but even back then, we had people who thought that they were, the
problem with America and they're not.
Immigration is not a problem.
Immigration is actually one of our strengths and I'm trying to
express that in this cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: we do see a whole lot more, anti immigration cartoons from the few
conservative cartoonists, not a whole lot of immigration cartoons from, the
majority liberal cartoonists, and, I don't know, perhaps that's as it should
be, is there some amount of immigrants crossing the border that is too much that
makes it more of an issue for you, Pat?
Pat Bagley: I don't know.
Other countries have taken in, as a percent of population, a
lot more refugees and immigrants because people are in distress.
They need help.
I mean, Mexican immigrants, people from Central and South America.
These people are being threatened by gangs, their life is just miserable
because the governments don't work.
Is there any limit to the amount of immigration?
We're a big country.
We can handle a lot.
If we just changed our point of view, we could do this.
And these people would be citizens, they'd be voting Republican
in the next 20 years if...
Everything worked as it should,
Daryl Cagle: So you think there may be a limit, it's too much, but
we're so far from it, it's not, it shouldn't be a consideration now?
Pat Bagley: No, we, we've always thought it's been too much.
Always, always.
Back in the 1900s, back in the 1800s, they were passing these anti immigration
laws, And this is not new, but America is the greatest country in the world.
Mostly because of immigrants.
I'm an immigrant.
I'm a, like, 10th generation immigrant.
But I was not born here, I did not come from here.
My people came from a different place.
But they came over here.
And we established ourselves.
And we pushed out the people that were here originally.
And this is a story that should be told.
It should be understood.
America is not a Christian nation.
America is a place that's been around for a billion years.
And we should respect other people's ideas.
Steve Sack: Well, they, they could solve that immigration issue, but
it's too juicy, a political topic, it's too, it's too effective to use.
politically.
And honestly, if Trump is reelected, reelected, that issue will probably
be one of the main reasons.
Pat Bagley: That's true.
And the thing is, Republicans could have solved this
immigration issue 20 years ago?
There was a bipartisan bill coming out of the Senate, that would have
established new immigration laws.
And Republicans didn't want to do it.
And so the House sunk it, even though it had bipartisan
participation in the Senate.
The Republican House sunk it, because they don't want a solution.
They don't want to solve this problem.
They want to constantly bring it
Daryl Cagle: up.
Well, opposition to immigration is driving all kinds of election results in Europe.
It's the reason for Brexit.
It's really got legs.
Pat Bagley: No, I agree.
I agree.
So sometimes you gotta flush like
Daryl Cagle: Okay, sometimes you gotta flush like 10 or 15 times as,
as Trump tries to, flush golden America down his golden toilet.
That's hilarious.
The golden toilet is hilarious.
Here you've got, Trump Miley Cyrus swinging in on a wrecking ball of new
EPA rules about to crash into the, the Christmas ornament, Earth wrecking ball.
That's, that's just hilarious.
That's, that's so many metaphors all in one.
And yet...
And yet it is a Christmas cartoon, and editors love the Christmas cartoons.
I mean, the way to get your cartoon printed is to do a Christmas cartoon.
And so this is like, a master course in editorial cartooning, Pat.
Pat Bagley: Thank you.
you all understand here that, uh, uh, global warming is an issue, right?
The world is burning down.
I mean, if you're looking at what's going on in South America,
And Australia, and it's just the beginning of spring down there.
And already they've got these massive firestorms going on.
and yet, Republicans up here are saying, I mean Utah, legislature, they
all say that global warming is a hoax.
Uh, no.
But thank you for the compliment of the cartoon.
KAL: I love this cartoon.
It's very simple.
Very clear, but also incredibly creative.
I, I look at this and I say, why didn't I think of this cartoon?
And the answer is, I never would have.
It's amazing.
Pat Bagley: Oh, thank you.
Daryl Cagle: And, uh, here's another movie reference cartoon with the
Christmas story and the elephant with his tongue stuck to the flagpole Trump
2020 and that is just really apt.
They are, seriously suffering from this.
And this is very funny.
And again, a Christmas cartoon, which means everybody prints it.
Pat Bagley: okay, good to know.
Steve Sack: The quibble I have is that I think the elephant would be happy.
Ha ha ha
KAL: ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Daryl Cagle: ha ha ha ha ha Happy because he's always stuck to Trump.
Steve Sack: Yep,
Daryl Cagle: all right.
Here's a giant corruption Trump, uh, statue of the Black Lives Matter dad
and his little daughter is also known as only my life matters monument.
The corruption monument.
Pat Bagley: And here in front of your face, in front of everybody, You've
got a corrupt president with his corrupt children making corrupt deals
with all the nations in the world, and they're getting billions of dollars.
I mean, we can talk about Jared Kushner, but this is, these people are crooks.
They're just absolute crooks.
And so the Republican playbook is, they call us crooks, we'll call them crooks.
And as far as their base goes, it works.
Daryl Cagle: Have you ever drawn a Hunter Biden cartoon?
Pat Bagley: I did.
We'll have to look it up.
I can't remember.
Kind of like what I just said, that they're so focused on this one non issue.
And Hunter Biden was not a government employee, was not a government official.
And the Republicans can't tie anything that he did to his father, as far as
his father making any money off it.
Daryl Cagle: There are remarkably few Biden cartoons, by our
conservative cartoonists.
it's really hard to care about it.
You know, I feel a little bit sorry for the guy because
he's a drug addict and a jerk.
But, you know, that doesn't motivate me to draw a cartoon about him.
he's just, uh, doesn't make much of an impact in cartoons.
Oh,
Pat Bagley: again, good, good to know.
Um, it's a non issue.
Republicans are really good at blowing up non issues.
Benghazi, uh, I don't know, half a dozen inquiries, they spent
50 million dollars investigating Benghazi and they got nothing?
That's what they do.
it's the appearance of corruption that they're looking for,
incompetence that they're looking for.
Daryl Cagle: So, Trump could shoot somebody on 5th Avenue and, his,
followers would still vote for him.
here he's got the guns.
He shot somebody on 5th Avenue who wrote, Trump did it in his blood on the sidewalk.
His, uh, no editor will print this blood.
And, uh, And, uh, the Trump y, uh, guy is saying to the policeman, Why
aren't you investigating Joe Biden?
as everyone points at the culprit, Trump.
that's a wonderful cartoon.
I wish it got printed.
Pat Bagley: But people didn't pick it up.
It was not popular.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I think it's just the blood.
Oh, okay.
What you gonna do?
Pat Bagley: Yeah, what you gonna do?.
People really like it on social media.
Daryl Cagle: This is an extra bloody one.
It's all the bad guys in the world with Trump singing we are the world as,
all of the press is, bloody again and, murdered on the ground with lots of blood.
KAL: You know,
Pat Bagley: editors don't publish because there's blood.
KAL: And isn't that, the really true difference between print and, social
media and the internet is that yes, you know, in the world of, you know,
a much more old fashioned notion.
But the place where we're going is one where blood and everything else can be
out there in the middle of the discussion.
Daryl Cagle: It certainly is, different stuff that gets, popular on the web
than gets, printed in newspapers.
KAL: I
Steve Sack: think that's a more accurate gauge of how good the cartoon is.
You know, if your gauge is how many spineless editors are going
to print a cartoon versus...
Online, how many people spontaneously like and share a piece.
I'll go with the online folks.
Pat Bagley: No, no, this is worth a whole new, uh, a different podcast.
Daryl Cagle: well, you know, our clients are newspapers, and it's newspapers
who define us as editorial cartoonists, and we've never found a good market on
the internet, and there's no culture for paying for content on the internet.
So, We are living with newspapers and, newspapers have a largely
elderly audience that has, grown to love newspapers and wants to
keep the experience as, other news outlets have become more popular.
A couple of interesting things, uh, you know, we, we look at the
demographics of our Cagle.Com site and it is, Males over 65.
And we look at the demographic of the people who watch our podcast on
YouTube, and it is males over 65.
So it's not only newspapers that are doing this, it's also the people who appreciate
our art form tend to be the people that are also the audience for newspapers.
And It may be that the editors are not wrong in what they edit
for their taste of their audience.
Steve Sack: I really hesitate to agree with that.
It seems like, you know, yes, the editors have gotten more
squeamish about that sort of thing.
But you look at the, you know, the great cartoonists before us.
Herblock or Oliphant or Mauldin or Conrad.
There was no shortage of blood in their cartoons.
Pat Bagley: Mhm.
It's true.
KAL: I also think what's interesting Daryl you, what you said just seemed
to make so much sense, particularly editors in a business trying to do
what they're, you know, customers.
want.
one of the curious things I discovered is that whenever I'm showing cartoons to the
under twenties who didn't grow up with cartoons, they're not reading newspapers.
They love cartoons.
But they're seeing them on the internet where it's hard, as you point out, to find
a model, uh, where it can be monetized.
Uh, people will love cartoons.
People continue to love cartoons.
But it's trying to find a way to make people pay for them.
That's going to be the challenge.
Daryl Cagle: I think to our credit, to the cartoonist credit, the
cartoonists draw what they want with really, without regard to whether
editors are gonna wanna print it.
Uh, it's rare that people, soften their cartoon for the editors.
editorial cartoonists, do really strong stuff.
this hasn't.
impacted what cartoonists
draw.
Steve Sack: Good.
KAL: You know, they got to eat those cartoons.
I've got to eat.
No, you're exactly right.
That it doesn't impact the, what they draw, but, um, as you know, just
in the business of trying to find a way to monetize it is going to be the
challenge in the, in the years ahead.
Um, and I suspect that there'll always be cartoons around, but
they may take on different forms that work well on the internet.
Yeah.
Pat Bagley: Yeah.
So
Daryl Cagle: go ahead, Pat.
This is a wonderful cartoon.
You got Xi Jinping sitting with Trump who's got his fingers stuck
in a Chinese, finger trap puzzle.
The Chinese puzzle.
there just are not enough Chinese finger trap puzzle cartoons.
That's so wonderful.
Pat Bagley: Yeah, they did this cartoon with my editors actually.
We're worried that it was maybe, um, culturally insensitive.
Daryl Cagle: Culturally insensitive because it's a Chinese Finger trap puzzle,
Pat Bagley: I guess that was, that was the worry.
We actually had a discussion whether we should run this or not.
Um, but I forgot I did this.
That's a good cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: That's a great cartoon.
Pat Bagley: You can look at your own cartoons, but that's pretty good.
That's, that's, that's what you want.
This was Trump's first major meeting with a foreign leader.
Okay.
Daryl Cagle: And here you've got the irony.
Can you believe Hunter Biden using his dad to get ahead as Trump's
kids are all vultures, chewing the flesh off the corpse of irony.
Uh, corpse of irony is just funny.
You know, irony has lost all its meaning now.
Uh, we used to think irony was important.
It used to be one of the things cartoonists relied on, but, uh.
It's just so pervasive in the world, it's hardly distinctive.
Pat Bagley: You say, irony is dead.
I guess it is.
KAL: Yeah, yeah.
And isn't that ironic?
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, this is funny.
The Donald Trump presidential lie berry.
What do you mean there's not a non fiction section?
this is funny.
The library is a giant casino is funny.
Pat Bagley: I could ask you guys, is Trump going to have a library?
Is he actually going to have a presidential library?
Daryl Cagle: Trump and library don't really go together.
I wonder if he, when he was last in a library.
That's such an
Pat Bagley: oxymoron.
A Trump library.
Daryl Cagle: So here we've got Trump's lies as some giant snot monster.
Welcome to the awards are exposed the disgusting fake news media.
Uh, this, I guess, was when Trump didn't want to go to the big press gala.
Well, he didn't, he
Pat Bagley: didn't do the usual presidential stuff, where you
gotta meet the public and you gotta promote culture and you gotta
promote literature and all that kind
KAL: And also excellent, excellent body fluids.
I just have to come in.
Daryl Cagle: Yes.
I like the body fluids.
I think snot is more acceptable than blood.
Pat Bagley: Okay.
So we just found out this last week from, military advisors that he
didn't want to be bothered with, our veterans, our soldiers, our military.
he didn't want people who'd been.
It would lost limbs in war to be around because it was just too gross for him.
again, one of those things that actually he said, he did.
Daryl Cagle: I guess the, the issue I'd have with this cartoon is that he
probably wouldn't be watching it on TV.
True.
Pat Bagley: You got me there.
Daryl Cagle: And, I thought this was just a, a wonderful, beautiful looking
cartoon, the, the elephant with the Trump floaty as the giant waves of
scandals is about to crash on him.
The composition of this is funny, the little guy in the corner, the big
waves, with all of the waves pointing at the, the elephant, the scandal waves.
I look at this and it's pretty, and it's, A lovely composition
and all the waves pointing at him is, just a wonderful device.
And I love this cartoon.
Pat Bagley: Oh, thank you.
And I grew up in California, so I know waves.
KAL: Well, the idea is so simple, yet you send across really
complex and powerful messages.
It's fantastic.
Daryl Cagle: Pat has been removed from the building.
Okay.
So, uh, Cal, the press briefing we all crave is Dr.
Fauci says, for the safety of our citizens, I'd recommending a
complete lockdown and quarantine.
you've got Trump's brain in a box, quarantined.
that would be excellent.
Yes,
KAL: indeed.
These things were comical in their own way, but I was just trying to find a
way to capture it in an amusing fashion.
Daryl Cagle: Pat, welcome back.
Pat Bagley: Okay, I've just got a few minutes here because the phone really is
about to go, and I've got two deadlines.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, we're gonna zip through Cal's cartoons.
Cal, just tell us something about each of these as they come up.
Uh, here we got Stop the Madness, Chaney, and the big row of Republicans
all following Trump's big lie.
That's great.
KAL: You'll find that there's so many trying to find new ways
to say that the Republicans are blindly following an idiot.
Yeah.
All these Trump critics are alike, as they say.
Daryl Cagle: I've got to say though, I do whatever I can
to avoid drawing crowd scenes.
And you seem to love the crowd scenes.
KAL: Oh yeah, he's good at that.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, I just don't have enough.
Time in my life to do it.
So it means that sleep gets good.
I mean, I sleep amounts when I have very complicated cartoons.
, , Daryl Cagle: you know, people, email me They've got a great idea for the cartoon
and they want me to draw their idea.
And very often, typically it is, there's an army on the left and it's facing
off against the army on the right and the sky is filled with helicopters.
It's as though, they have no respect for my laziness.
Steve Sack: A simple image is really nice in a cartoon when it's just,
you know, just a few elements and the simplicity is really beautiful.
But sometimes a cartoon is epic and a cartoon on this scale.
I love these kind of things.
Oh, yeah.
There's so many details to look at, and you just take in the whole scope.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, and you, and the complexity of it is
made simple by it being a line.
Exactly.
Pat Bagley: Yeah, no, wonderful.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got, uh, Trump with the world, ready to
explode with all the dynamite.
Trump says, if I lose the election, I would definitely
consider a transfer of power.
KAL: That's such a great Trump, by the way.
I, um, I'm proud of this cartoon because I actually did this the September before
the election and, uh, you know, then we find five weeks, five months later,
this is exactly what he tried to do.
Steve Sack: Yeah.
Is this watercolor?
KAL: Uh, this could have been watercolor.
Probably is.
Steve Sack: Yeah, I mean, you were talking earlier about watercolor versus digital.
But, uh, KAL, you can do things with watercolor.
No one else can.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, this looks like real watercolor and not digital.
KAL: Yeah, I'd do a little bit of both.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got Trump in his straitjacket
being carried away by the cops.
He's yelling, treacherous traitors.
I am...
Mentally fit for office.
I demand to speak to my lawyer.
And then they're dragging Rudy Giuliani along in his street jacket.
Coming boss.
This is, uh, this is great.
KAL: Yes, um, all I can say is that, you know, this is something
that happens in my dreams.
To see these guys in straight jackets, but maybe that day will come.
Daryl Cagle: Ha ha ha ha.
Another thing editors don't print is vertical format cartoons.
but you know, uh, sometimes you just gotta do it.
KAL: With some, this could have been spun around to be horizontal as well.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got, the two headed, beast, uh, elephant and
hippo, and Trump's on top and says, Republicans used to be a party of truth
and honor, but now they follow me, so I have designed a new party symbol that
better reflects today's Republicans.
Not elephants.
Hippocrates.
That's very nice.
Well,
KAL: this is a, I took out this, this is Steve Sack-ian, you know, this is, the
only reason I did this is because Steve inspired me with his crazy creatures.
Pat Bagley: Yeah,
Daryl Cagle: that's a fun thing to paint.
And again, it looks like a real watercolor.
KAL: It is.
Yeah.
Yes, that, that was
Daryl Cagle: Frame it and put it on the wall.
Here's another nice real watercolor.
you see the bright, sunset and Trump says the sun is not sitting on me.
Those cheating Democrats are raising the horizon.
That's great.
KAL: Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I was actually.
I was playing around with sunsets, and then when I was in the middle
of doing it, I said, Ooh, there's a cartoon in here somewhere, so
that's kind of how it arrived.
Yeah.
I've done that too,
Steve Sack: when I made images that were just fun to draw,
and then you have to find a...
political situation to use it.
Daryl Cagle: Yep.
So here's Trump at his, coronation combo hanging of democracy as all
the mega guys are fawning over him and paying attention to him, even
as they're, destroying democracy.
That's really very nice.
KAL: well you, what I love about this one, Daryl, is that we've talked before about
the red tie as being iconic for him, Uhhuh , and we find different ways to use it.
And this one, the red tie trail is like a ribbon.
And then the payoff is that you see that it's a noose for
the go around, uh, democracy.
Daryl Cagle: that's how I should have described the cartoon because this
is all about using the tie as a prop, tying him to the hanging of democracy.
And, that's the point of it.
And.
that's a lovely device.
KAL: Thank you.
And it's also another example of Republicans, you
know, falling for this guy.
Daryl Cagle: Here, you've got the Republican elephant looking
at Trump as he's threatening to slit the throat of democracy.
A Republican says he was just minding his own business on January 6th when
suddenly this passerby violently attacks his knife with her neck.
KAL: some cartoons are sight gags, some of them are word gags.
And, if you can mix the two, that often can be quite fun.
And this one is, I'd say, mostly a word gag.
it could have been even more simply drawn, but, um, it's...
Daryl Cagle: And also, you avoided having any blood, which
makes people willing to print it.
KAL: Yes, and no snot as well.
No snot.
Daryl Cagle: No bodily fluids whatsoever.
So here you got the, Republican MAGA police with the, holding the postal
service lady who says, But we're just delivering postal ballots to the people.
And Trump says, Oh yeah, with this tremendous magnifying
glass, I see a huge fraud.
Pence says, "That's a hand mirror, sir."
This is, uh, this is just a cute everybody acting in character cartoon.
Mm, mm.
KAL: Well, it was right, it was before the election when the postal ballots
were going to be introduced and the Republicans were trying to do everything
they can to stop it because They felt that that would work against them.
And so they're making stuff up, and this is Trump making stuff up here.
Surprise.
Pat Bagley: Trump's hair here is perfect.
It's just..
Daryl Cagle: It is.
A wonderful thing about comic strips is, so much of the humor in comic strips
is just the character acting like you know the character's gonna act and
then it's gratifying to see them do what you thought they would do because
that reinforces what you thought.
And, uh, you know, there's just, there's very few characters in
editorial cartoons that we can do that with, but, you know, Trump and
Pence and, MAGA police and everybody just acting like they should act.
It just makes for a very gratifying...
personality cartoon.
Pat Bagley: Okay, guys, we're down to 1%.
So, and I've got a cartoon to do.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, we'll see you later, Pat.
Thank you for joining us.
Okay.
Loved it.
Bye Pat.
See you later.
Okay.
here you've got, all of the MAGA guys with, blood and soil, white power,
Nazi sign, doing their, Heil Hitler salute to, Fuhrer Trump, who says,
trust me, there's just so many good people here just trying to hail a taxi.
KAL: Yeah.
And that was during the Charlottesville, event that took place, you know, early in
his presidency, within a year, I believe.
And it was a shocking thing to see.
And he was, Being ambiguous enough to be able to lend
credence to, the protesters there.
And so I just felt I had to find a way to say, without...
Putting Klu Klux Klan things on their head, Daryl.
So, swastika in there.
My apologies.
Daryl Cagle: But, you don't worry about that.
When you're doing a cartoon for The Economist, it just
runs in The Economist, right?
KAL: Yes.
Yeah, that's
true.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, uh, here you've got, uh, Snake Trump.
He has swallowed the elephant, swallowed it like a pig through a snake.
And, the media is saying, One year after the January 6th insurrection, how
would you describe the Republican Party?
And Trump, the snake, says, delicious.
He certainly did swallow them whole, and January 6th only seemed to help that.
KAL: Yeah, that's, it seems to be a common theme, because it is a
common theme for his presidency.
You'll see that a lot in cartoons.
Uh, and this cartoon, I particularly like it, because I like drawing
animals, like Steve, and I like to combine them with people.
That's kind of an old, cartoonist way.
Ploy is to take real people and turn them into animals as a way of kind of
demeaning them to some degree and Also to make it interesting for the viewer
Daryl Cagle: here you've got the Justice Department pulling down the justice
statue like the Saddam statue and the impeachment police chatting with Trump
saying the armed extremists who threatened you has been neutralized the justice
being neutralized that is grim, but true.
KAL: you notice that some of the cartoons are black and white and some are in color.
The cartoons that appear in The Economist are black and white and they can run,
they could run them in color, but they're choosing, choosing to have them in
black and white because they like the feeling that gives on the newspaper page.
Daryl Cagle: I prefer black and white too.
Steve Sack: The line work.
is so effective.
Daryl Cagle: So here you've got Mike Esper.
He's tugging, Mad Dog Trump and holding him back with his tie leash.
That's very nice.
Well, I, uh...
He was a moderating influence and this is what moderation looks like with Trump.
KAL: Exactly, he was talking about all the crazy things he
had to stop Trump from doing.
I included this cartoon in the mix because I just love...
The Trump feeling, you know, his kind of bulldog craziness in this cartoon.
Bulldog
Daryl Cagle: craziness, that's great.
And here you got Trump talking to Putin.
Putin says, Hello Donald, I hacked your last election, attacking your
most defining national institution.
I intend to do it again, only this time with more precision.
And Trump says, You had me at hello!
KAL: Thank you.
Well, this cartoon ran just after the first meeting between the two, and there
was an iconic photograph of the two of them talking like this, but nobody knew
what they were saying to each other.
And so I projected that I actually got some, you know, audio, and then
this is what actually they said.
Daryl Cagle: And here's a very nice, uh, explain this cartoon to us.
This is, uh, Death, COVID, swinging his COVID mace, and USA the knight,
and, Trump, uh, Opening up his shoe.
Tell us about
KAL: this.
Well, you guys, it's, boy, it seems like ancient history, the pandemic,
and the craziness that went on there.
But one of the things that everyone might remember is that while we were doing,
during lockdown and before we were able to have medication to be able to alleviate
the worst parts of this, that Trump was agitating to open up the economy because,
obviously, He was seeing the drag it was having on his popularity, but everyone
from, scientists who knew better and most people who knew the dangers of this
were saying, idiocy, do not do that.
So here I was doing a cartoon that was trying to say that this is what an idiotic
thing to start taking off of your armor in the middle of a battle, essentially.
And that's what he's trying to do to the US.
Daryl Cagle: And here's another dragon cartoon, finally a sane and sensible
president willing to take on Kim Jong un.
That's Mitch McConnell getting burned up by Trump's dragon that he's riding on.
Uh, very nice.
I love dragon
KAL: cartoons.
Oh, I love drawing dragons.
Uh, it's kind of big, you know, talk about detail, it's kind of been, uh, just a,
a bit of zen to start drawing a dragon and start doing all the scales it kind
of occupies with me for an hour or two.
Steve Sack: Dragons and Godzilla's and monsters, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: so here's Trump barricaded in the Oval Office with all the
furniture and he's saying the media's a threat, immigrants are a threat,
Mueller's a threat, Democrats are a threat, allies are a threat, and his
secretary says he's in his morning
KAL: meeting with his
Daryl Cagle: inner circle.
The inner circle of barricaded furniture.
lovely, lots of attitude cartoon.
KAL: It's one of my favorite cartoons because it first of all, what you
try to do with the cartoon is save the joke for the last couple words so
people will have a moment at the end.
So it's a good combination of humorous drawing, humorous, timing with
the words, but then talking about something that addresses a truth.
Very effective.
Thank you.
Daryl Cagle: I think this is the last one.
We've got Trump the javelin thrower in a multi panel cartoon.
He's running, throwing the javelin, bink the javelin, lands on the ground,
short of constitutional democracy which is not suffering at all from his
javelin throws and, is looking, very strong, like it is not going to suffer
from anything Trump has to throw at it.
So this is a nice optimistic cartoon.
KAL: Well it was, you know, done after January 6th where, you know, it was
clear in my mind that he was actually trying to overthrow the democracy
people were trying to suggest, which was all sorts of other things.
And, the punchline in this one is, at the bottom it says he's called
the overthrower, where he, in this one he's throwing so many times
and so many times he's failing.
Um, this is what his intention is to go back and try it again.
And if we let him, he would do it again.
This would
Steve Sack: be a great animated
Pat Bagley: cartoon.
Daryl Cagle: It would.
You know, I'll bet he'd never put a thought into overthrowing democracy.
He was just thinking that he wanted to win and it was all about him and, any mention
of democracy comes only from the left.
And the right, doesn't recognize any of that.
And, I, Kind of get a little bit of that.
I feel like all of this, crazy election vote fighting nonsense just all grew
out of Bush versus Gore, and that just made it all, standard, like,
that's how you fight an election.
you do all that legal nonsense at the end, and, he had his precedent.
KAL: well, my thought is that there is some, I think maybe where it is a little
bit different in Trump's cl case is that he, and what will probably be discovered
more as we go along is, is that he knew that he hadn't won and that he was
going to, use extra legal ways to try to, guarantee that he stays in office.
So, in the case of, Bush Gore, everyone's trying to use legal ways.
But now we're branching out those extra legal ways.
And that's when we get in real dangerous waters.
Steve Sack: I agree with you, Daryl, that, it seems like it's all about getting the
most votes for your side, no matter what.
And the whole idea of trying to restrict voting or to make
it harder for people to vote.
That's all based on trying to, Make your side win and the other side
lose, and it's not so much we want to destroy democracy as we want
to win no matter what the cost is.
Daryl Cagle: Well, on that note, that was our last cartoon, gentlemen, and thank you
for being with us, I really appreciate it.
It's wonderful to get you to finally do this, Steve, and
wonderful to have our first outside cartoonist for the first time, Kal.
And, Steve, I hope you'll come back because you have a vast
archive on evergreen topics that we could do more podcasts on.
And, I will twist your arm.
Steve Sack: Yeah, why didn't you use my best cartoons?
Daryl Cagle: I love all your stuff, Steve and I'm just, uh, I'm a big fan and I'm...
Oh, thank you, Daryl.
Steve Sack: And I'm honored to be on the same podcast with KAL and Pat.
KAL: Yes.
Steve Sack: Among my favorite cartoonists, too.
KAL: Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, it was a, it's a great combination.
And poor Daryl is now going to spend 12 hours editing this.
Daryl Cagle: Ha ha ha ha, uh, anybody watching this is not
going to know how much I edit out.
and that is, uh, I guess a hidden blessing.
So, thank you so much.
And remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you're
watching or listening today.
And, the Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions.
So if you don't see the cartoons, go to Cagle.com or Apple Podcasts, or YouTube
or Spotify to see the video podcast.
Uh, one way I like to see it is on, the PodCruncher app, because
it really is better in video.
But, if you only get audio, it is still the best podcast around.
And gentlemen, thank you for being here.
I really enjoyed it.
And, I hope to have you guys, back again.
This was fun.
It was crazy and an editing challenge, but it was fun.
KAL: It was fun.
It was my guys.
Great stuff.
Daryl Cagle: See you later.