Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where
we're all about political cartoons.
And we have three great political cartoonists here today to talk
about their favorite Trump cartoons.
Hajo de Reijger is a brilliant Dutch cartoonist from, Haarlem, and he draws
for the NRC Handelsblad newspaper, which we love because they subscribe
to our Cagle Cartoons cartoon service and run our cartoons all the time.
Nice to have you here, Hajo.
Thank you, nice to be here.
Hajo De Reijger: It's a wonderful show.
Daryl Cagle: Dave Whamond is incredibly prolific.
He draws two comics, Reality Check and Day by Dave.
And he's a prolific illustrator.
He does puzzles, greeting cards, and lots of top selling children's books.
And he just won the Silver Reuben Award from the National Cartoonist Society for
Best Advertising Cartoonist of the Year.
So congratulations, Dave.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
And Taylor Jones is a brilliant caricaturist.
Taylor draws for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University.
He was a staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo
Dia newspaper in Puerto Rico.
And he drew for many years for U.
S.
News and World Report Magazine.
And he's won a ton of awards, too.
Nice to have you back, Taylor.
Not really.
you drew so many great...
Trump cartoons that we had to have you back two times in a row just
because there's just too many great Trump cartoons for you, Taylor.
Taylor Jones: I wish editors were happier with them, though.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah, there's supposed to be a sound for that, huh?
Daryl Cagle: This, uh, I don't
Hajo De Reijger: have any sound.
I don't know.
No, I know.
I know.
But it's, there's supposed to be the do do do doom, do
but they are all characters, so it wasn't really, uh, so much trouble.
Yeah, what a crazy bunch.
Daryl Cagle: well, they're creepy, and they're kooky, and mysterious,
and spooky, and altogether ooky.
I think this is just wonderful, and the animation is funny, and, I've got
to say I'm really impressed with this.
Thank you.
And they really, they really do fit those roles.
Yeah, well,
Hajo De Reijger: I got, I got some complaints because people were angry.
because the real, or the real, the Addams family is actually,
they're really nice people.
And they're not, they're not as evil as the Trump family, the Trump clan.
So that's, that's the, comparison I, I shouldn't have made.
So I think an
Daryl Cagle: analogy.
Well, it makes me laugh.
All right.
This is a hilarious cartoon.
I think this is wonderful.
. Uh, this is, uh, the Prez dispenser with, hydroxychloroquine.
wonderful thing,
. Hajo De Reijger: Thank you.
Yeah.
This only works if it's animated, I guess, right?
I
Daryl Cagle: wonder.
Taylor Jones: if there is a Trump head on one of the
Hajo De Reijger: Pez.
That would, that would be nice.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this is hilarious.
Wonderful work, Hajo.
Thanks.
Very good.
Hajo De Reijger: Oh yeah, this one is from a long time ago.
It was the, when he said it was all a big hoax.
The, COVID.
But then, he got it himself, right?
And then, he saw the world ending and, uh, but he, he recovered somehow.
Dave Whamond: Yeah.
And now he's back to it's all a big hoax again,
Daryl Cagle: so.
Oh, yeah.
Well,
Taylor Jones: that makes the weather vane, uh, all the more fitting.
Exactly.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, it's great.
This is a great one.
Hajo De Reijger: Oh, yeah.
This was when, um, Twitter decided to, uh, place fact checks.
on, tweets, right?
Yeah.
some time
Daryl Cagle: ago.
Well, we've never been able to get people to, buy animations from us.
And, so many cartoonists want to do animated editorial cartoons
there hasn't been a market for it.
People love them.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah, because it's, uh, nice to have on the website, right?
In, in, in the newspaper, it's difficult, I understand, but on the website, yeah.
This is, yeah, the super simple, simplest animation is just one leg as you see.
And it's, I think three or four frames only.
And, uh, yeah, you can do this on a, on an iPad very easily, or even Photoshop
has this function now where you can just.
Animate your, uh, well, you take a portion of the, of, of the drawing and you put
it in different positions like frames.
Right.
Daryl Cagle: So, wonderful stuff, Hajo.
I'm going to go into some of your...
Thank you very much, appreciate it.
Yeah, some of your regular cartoons here.
So, Hajo, here you've got, Trump the Caveman dragging, the Statue of Liberty.
Uh, yeah, Liberty's been suffering.
Hajo De Reijger: classic, uh, image, maybe, he was considered
a kind of a ignorant, dumbass
Daryl Cagle: caveman, right?
Well, also in his relationships with women.
yeah.
You know, some of our cartoonists, we, we call...
some foreign cartoonists like Dave, American cartoonists, in
order to, get the editors to be more interested in their work.
And, we could do that with a good deal of your cartoons, Hajo.
That would, be a big boost for you.
For some reason, the editors just don't pay much attention to the
foreign cartoonists just because they're foreign nothing to do with
the cartoons much of the time.
That's that's weird though.
Taylor Jones: America's funny that way.
It's always been like that
Hajo De Reijger: Kind of nationalistic thing or
Daryl Cagle: maybe You know, we see the same thing around the world.
Um, other countries don't want American cartoons just because they're American.
Yeah,
Dave Whamond: it's interesting,
Hajo De Reijger: but I think it's not about what's depicted, but who
Taylor Jones: made it?
I think, I think, uh, just add one thing here.
I think that's sort of historical in the U.
S.
case in that there's something about, it's like.
Of course, some were forcibly brought here, but people who come here, it's
like, okay, you're done with that.
Now you're done with all of what was before.
And, and we have a very narrow view of, of the rest of the world.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I see it in my traffic stats.
Readers aren't interested in, foreign, issues on the website.
Just in looking at the cartoons.
Anyway, this is, uh, this is lovely Hajo.
uh, Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, he is I, I believe
Hajo De Reijger: it's, it was about, The steels, he wanted to have
a steel war or something, right?
It's been a long time ago already.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, we have, um, tariffs on steel.
Daryl Cagle: I don't think we got any cartoons from American
cartoonists on tariffs on steel.
Nobody here cared about it.
Taylor Jones: It's funny because, you know, this is, I think Trump
engaged in the biggest tariff stuff since about the 1920s.
You know, that was a standard in American politics and history for, much of our
history, I love the horse in this.
It's a beautifully done,
Hajo De Reijger: Hajo.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Well, that should represent America though, but, uh,
Daryl Cagle: this is a very nice one.
Trump and, Xi Jinping blaming him.
You know, uh, I think if an American cartoonist had drawn this, it would
have been a baseball reference.
Oh,
Hajo De Reijger: yeah, of course.
No.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
This was, uh, my meaning was a bit more, Dennis the Menace,
uh, Dennis the Menace like,
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Dennis the Menace hits his baseball through, Mr.
Wilson's window.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah,
Dave Whamond: I love, I love that Trump.
He's Perfect.
You can't do any better than
Daryl Cagle: that.
It is a wonderful Trump.
A wonderful Xi Jinping, too.
Now, um, I love this trumpet.
I don't entirely understand the pencil.
No,
Hajo De Reijger: this is, uh, it's a weird one, this one.
This was intended to be, uh, for the cartoonists.
So that the cartoonists Uh, are literally having a roast of, uh, on Trump.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, was this like for a cartoonist organization or a group?
Yeah, that was, yeah.
Hajo De Reijger: And I thought I, I, I, uh, I would send it in here because maybe
it's, um, it's interesting because, uh, well it, it is, he is a gift, like a gift
that keeps giving, right, this Trump guy.
He's like a, he's like a ragdoll you, you, you love to hate.
You can just take him and put him in any situation and, uh, just own, own him.
Taylor Jones: It's Thanksgiving every day, Hajo, with Trump.
It is, for sure.
Dave Whamond: Sometimes it's like five times in one day, he gives
you five things all in a row.
Daryl Cagle: You know, this has It's hard, it's hard to keep up.
Yeah.
I should say, this has been very frustrating for us because, editors.
Here in the USA have, not been printing Trump cartoons.
And of course it's the favorite thing for artists to do.
You know, it's different on the web.
You put your Trump cartoon up on your social media and it gets a lot of
attention and people are interested.
And, I think, our last, podcast that we did on Trump has been successful.
We've been picking up, subscribers and, getting, Interest from that.
That's why I want to keep doing them.
Also, because the cartoonists have so many Trumps, and everybody
can show just their own cartoons and talk about their own work.
And that's, great.
But, it is frustrating that the editors don't print them.
Hajo De Reijger: is it a trump fatigue?
Maybe?
Yes.
I amongst
Taylor Jones: the publishers.
I feel it as a cartoonist.
I really don't like drawing him anymore.
you know, I'll do it, but, uh, Question, I have a question for Dave.
on your side of the border, how successful is Trump in pushing
everything else off the screen?
Let me
Daryl Cagle: say that Dave is a cartoonist in Canada, he works from Calgary.
Dave Whamond: I would say we hear about him nonstop, just like you guys, like
it's, you know, we have Trudeau in the headlines now and then, but Trump
takes over pretty much everything.
And we're quite concerned about, some of the things going on with.
We're worried about, uh, you guys are the beacon of democracy, so if
you go down, then we all go down.
So, you know, get a little worried about it.
Taylor Jones: Thank you.
I appreciate
Daryl Cagle: that.
Yeah.
I look at Canada as more of a shining star now.
Well, usually
Dave Whamond: what happens in the U.
S.
comes to us pretty soon after, so that's why, uh, you know, we, we
tend to follow what's going on there?
So you know, the rest of the world,
Daryl Cagle: right?
Hajo De Reijger: Everyone is kind of following the states.
Daryl Cagle: well, you've got great health care compared to us.
You've got all kinds of things that work compared to us
Dave Whamond: Yeah, that's the myth.
They say we drink maple syrup and have great health care, but I don't, I don't
drink maple syrup and I could tell you long stories about some of the health
care things, but I won't get into it now.
Daryl Cagle: And you are a hell of a lot more polite
Taylor Jones: as a people.
Well, of course you had that Toronto had that mayor Ford.
He wasn't particularly polite.
Dave Whamond: No, no, no.
He was sort of a Trump character.
Yeah.
Hajo De Reijger: What was his name?
Rob
Daryl Cagle: Ford,
Dave Whamond: yeah.
And now his brother's the uh, premier of the province now and
he's, he's kind of uh, following in his footsteps a little bit.
He's a more toned down version.
Oh, this
Daryl Cagle: is great.
This is very funny.
This is Minion Kim Jong Un.
And I think this is hilarious.
You know, it's even funny that you have them moved up from the bottom of the page.
Yeah,
Hajo De Reijger: it is.
Yeah.
I'm so lazy.
If I don't have to draw the whole...
Guy, then, uh, better not.
Better move off the page.
Daryl Cagle: So here's Pied Piper Trump leading the media.
You know, it's only the conservative media that he actually leads.
But they do all chase after him.
Hajo De Reijger: we are all following and we have a podcast about Trump now.
So
Taylor Jones: you've got a great graphic sense and all of these cartoons.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Dave Whamond: I also like that.
You don't put a lot of any words that I've seen in the cartoons, which is nice.
It's kind of let yourself tell the story when you look at it.
So
Hajo De Reijger: I tend not to do any words.
I have, I believe send in one cartoon with words and it's not really, it's not
really good, but We'll see it later on.
Dave Whamond: I'm the opposite.
I cram, cram too much, uh, words.
I have to edit myself, you know.
Oh, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: This actually is, I think, a cartoonist thing.
Cartoonists really admire the cartoons with no words.
But I haven't noticed a correlation, with what editors choose to print.
The editors...
Don't seem to mind the wordy cartoons.
I'm kind of guessing the foreign editors don't like wordy American cartoons.
Taylor Jones: this cartoon needs no translation, you know.
Dave Whamond: Yeah, absolutely.
Daryl Cagle: I was just
Dave Whamond: going to say, people look at on their phones a lot of the time, right?
So if there's a bunch of words, it's hard for them to take it in.
It's nice, sort of a one hit look.
And it's like, hey, I get it right
Daryl Cagle: away.
Yeah, we also have a disadvantage in that we're stuck in this wide format
because that's the traditional hole that newspapers leave for editorial
cartoons, and that makes them not display that well on the phone because people
usually have the portrait tall view.
and I see a lot of cartoonists are trying to do cartoons more in this,
square kind of format for phones.
And, I do notice that those get reprinted less among our newspapers,
because they just don't fit the hole.
they've set their pages up so that They are, automated and they don't really have
the flexibility to change that, space.
They just want to drop something in there.
So, something that's not the right shape just gets overlooked.
so what's the best
Hajo De Reijger: shape?
So it's a landscape or portrait.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, landscape.
and also, this, it's just fun that you have this pushed off to the left.
that's true.
Don't
Hajo De Reijger: know why, really.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Don't know why.
Maybe because...
You don't know why.
Sorry.
Well, it shows that he's, uh, you know, he's got places to go.
I mean, there's,
he's on the move.
Hajo De Reijger: Maybe, text would be on the side or something like that.
Maybe.
Dave Whamond: That was my first thought as, like, as an illustrator, I think,
oh, that's where they put the copy.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah, yeah,
probably they did, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Well, I would say don't admit that, tell us about this one.
Hajo De Reijger: maybe this is also for an article.
I don't really remember, but it's so nice that, that there's such clear
analogies, or metaphors for, like the G o P or, for these parties.
Right.
just drawn elephant, you know, it's, it's, uh, for the conservative.
Daryl Cagle: we just did a, exhibition at St.
Just of donkeys and elephants.
the people at the museum there did all kinds of work to explain donkeys
and elephants to, the people there because they don't make sense.
Yeah, yeah.
but you don't hesitate to draw elephants.
Do your readers complain?
Does everybody know donkeys and elephants just as well?
Yeah,
Hajo De Reijger: well, here in the Netherlands, they do, I guess.
Maybe it's in France different because they're more introspective.
in the country, they tend to be much more bothered with French business than
with American or international business.
And I think in the Netherlands, we look more To the West, I
Taylor Jones: think.
The Netherlands have, Any particular animal or kind of mascots for
various political parties that that you just associate or
movements that you associate with
Hajo De Reijger: not really?
No, we have a national symbol.
That's the lion.
but that's about it We don't have we don't have a bipartisan
We don't have only two parts.
We have a lot of parties of course
Daryl Cagle: It's interesting about that, about introspection.
We've got hardly any, clients in France.
only a couple cartoonists from, France that, don't contribute very often.
But we've got six cartoonists from the Netherlands.
And we've got newspapers like the NRC Handelsblad that subscribes
to our work in the Netherlands.
And, it's interesting that the Netherlands is such a cartoon friendly country
compared to all the rest of Europe.
Yeah,
Hajo De Reijger: it's true.
Yeah.
I went to a cartoon dinner party.
yesterday with a lot of cartoonists.
It's really, like you say, it's super cartoon friendly, cartoonist friendly.
Daryl Cagle: Orange life matters.
Trump holds the sign.
That's, great.
Yeah,
Hajo De Reijger: it's about him, right?
It's always about him.
Taylor Jones: So, yeah.
You know, it's funny that the long tie has even been noticed
by cartoonists abroad, you know.
Dave Whamond: Oh yeah.
I love the spray paint, uh, orange along his neckline there.
That's perfect.
Daryl Cagle: Also the blue suit.
We talked about his color scheme on the last podcast.
Yeah.
Hajo De Reijger: Um, yes, but, but again, right.
It's, it's like this, this doll you can put in any position.
You have to kind of, if you have him, you can own him and
you can put him everywhere.
So long tie, orange face, weird hair.
That's it.
You
Taylor Jones: know, it's funny that it's funny that, that Trump who is
obese and, uh, gross in many ways yet comes off as more vital than Biden,
and that's a real problem for Biden.
True.
It seems like he's 80 going on 95.
Dave Whamond: Yeah, and then you see pictures sometimes of Biden riding
a bike and then Trump, who's, uh, you know, pretty much out of shape.
I think they're only really three years different in age and they think, well,
Daryl Cagle: what's, yeah, well, the pictures of him riding a bike
are usually when he's falling down.
Yeah.
Okay, so, Hajo, here you've got, uh, Mike Pence sticking his head up Trump's butt.
And then in the next, uh, picture, the fly is on his head
saying, this hair smells so good.
You recall that dominated the news for a day where a fly was
walking around on Pence's head.
I think it was he at the debate or something?
Yeah.
I think he kept landing on it.
He stayed there.
Yeah.
This is funny.
It took me a minute to quite figure out what was going on.
Did Hayo put two cartoons on here?
Dave Whamond: That's, I've never seen that before.
That's, like, everyone does the fly and pants joke, but that's,
that's the best one I've seen.
Yeah, thank you.
Hajo De Reijger: Well, I was, I was, I felt sorry I had to put
some words there because I didn't know how to get around, but,
Daryl Cagle: You probably could have done without the words.
Hajo De Reijger: Ah, maybe.
You
Taylor Jones: think?
Maybe
Dave Whamond: put some stink lines coming off
Daryl Cagle: or something.
Oh, maybe, yeah.
Taylor Jones: I think otherwise you'd have had to add some brown up there.
Uh oh.
Daryl Cagle: Then it's not getting printed for sure.
No.
Hajo De Reijger: This is not getting printed, so it's, uh,
Daryl Cagle: They used to call those stink lines, wafteroons.
Taylor Jones: Really?
That's a new one on me.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Alright, so here, winter, spring, summer, and fall.
Fall.
Trump falls.
This is an optimistic cartoon.
It's the Four
Hajo De Reijger: Seasons, remember?
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Does he really fall, though?
No.
Taylor Jones: Well,
Daryl Cagle: And, and is this a cartoon about oil?
Oh,
Hajo De Reijger: I'm sorry.
I don't remember.
Daryl Cagle: You know, we can be podcast podcasts used in
schools and, the kids say.
Explain the cartoon to me and they have to write an essay about it.
And I, I think it's kind of instructive that sometimes the
cartoonist doesn't remember what it's
Taylor Jones: You know he's all for
opening up further leasing for, you know, uh, for oil rigs in the North slope
of Alaska and pretty much everywhere.
And this, that's what I would think.
I mean, as you can see that you can see where the tires are going to the oil.
So yeah, that's a, that's a good enough explanation
Hajo De Reijger: for me.
For me too.
Thanks.
Daryl Cagle: He wants to go where the oil is.
Right.
That's what, regardless of the ball being behind him.
Right.
Taylor Jones: Yeah.
Hajo De Reijger: I just noticed that.
Okay.
Thanks Taylor.
Daryl Cagle: So you had Trump dragging liberty, here's Trump wrestling justice.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, that's, and again, you can put Trump in a really nice, tight
fitting suit with, golden boots.
That's what you can do as a cartoonist, right?
Daryl Cagle: Okay, this is a border wall cartoon.
The border wall wasn't quite fitting into, what Trump wanted to get done.
Hajo De Reijger: I want a wall.
Dave Whamond: And the famous Trump pote there, too.
Daryl Cagle: This is a very nice cartoon.
It's the American flag with, Trump, Putting back the popular protests and,
well popular protests or are those just every man or are they, immigrants?
Hajo De Reijger: They were immigrants.
Yeah Yeah, it's immigrants.
Daryl Cagle: You've got immigrants, uh with shopping cart.
I guess that's moving their stuff and They're carrying things
because they're immigrants.
Taylor Jones: Yeah, and they're kind of holding up, you know, It's like
they're holding up society because of America being a nation of immigrants
of course, a standoff with the Border
Daryl Cagle: Patrol.
I just assumed that this was protests, you know, you think of him holding
up the Bible and, putting down the protests in Washington and, so much
focus of the right on, protests in Portland and Black Lives Matter and
how intolerant they are of that.
Hajo De Reijger: yeah, again, so much, so much happened.
So many things you can like.
It involves a lot of people, so you can put it on all these things, right?
Daryl Cagle: So it's an all purpose cartoon.
Exactly, yeah.
Hajo De Reijger: You gotta have some of those, yeah, for just in case.
Daryl Cagle: Taylor, we're moving on to you.
Thank you, Hajo.
Thank you.
Um this is really very funny.
You've got a giant truck with a Trump sticker on it, big red truck, and
the little blue, liberals saying, They said there were two spaces left.
I said, Trump took up two spaces.
that's really very funny.
I think it's true,
Taylor Jones: true, you know, especially down here in Florida,
you can kind of tell just
Daryl Cagle: by looking at the truck.
Oh, I think this is a blue spot, but we've got all of these rude
Trumpy people that take the two places with their giant truck.
And a GoExist
Hajo De Reijger: sticker on the, on the back.
Yeah.
Yes.
Daryl Cagle: You have anything like this in Canada?
Dave Whamond: I was going to say we have obnoxious people taking
up two spots, but I don't know if they're Trump trucks or not.
We like the big trucks up here.
That's for
Daryl Cagle: sure.
I don't know.
You're in Calgary.
You've got a lot of right wing there, don't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Dave Whamond: absolutely.
Taylor Jones: I've long thought that at parking lots.
For safety's sake should be segregated between trucks and, and
SUVs on one side and then smaller vehicles like the car I drive so
that, you know, it's not a hazard,
Dave Whamond: yeah, you try to back out between two big trucks with a little car.
Yeah, I
Taylor Jones: do it all the time.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: I'll just title this podcast, uh, Taylor in favor of segregation.
So here you've got Trump crucified he's hanging on the cross,
the top secret up at the top.
and he says, This vicious prosecution is a travesty of justice.
And someone says, Heck, you nailed yourself up there.
You're still clutching the hammer.
You know, Taylor, we all draw crucifixion cartoons, and
they just, nobody prints them.
No.
I
Taylor Jones: don't know why.
Well, I do know why.
It's a shame because, you know, when I was drawing cartoons for El Novo
Dia in Puerto Rico, um, I had to be, I could really, for instance, I could
get away with, a cartoon that someone could be upset because of a Jewish theme
or maybe looks like it's maybe too, you know, not, you know what I mean?
So you gotta be careful down there.
That was fine.
The problem was, Dealing with the Catholicism and the Pope.
I had to be very careful.
Daryl Cagle: Well, it's one of the right wing talking points that, media can
bash Christians, but not other religions.
You know, if you hadn't put blood on his hands.
Three more papers would have printed this and
Taylor Jones: yet You know, I realize that Daryl, but how can you have the
nails to the hand blood, you know, I mean You can find some churches where
they'll they actually have that you know,
Dave Whamond: what were you saying Daryl in the last podcast?
I think you said they don't print cartoons with blood or drool or
There was a third thing, too.
There was, oh,
Daryl Cagle: well, there's, there's, there's urine.
There's vomit.
There's poop.
Uh, we can make a list of bodily, okay, no, they don't like any of them.
They're, they're fairly tolerant of sweat.
I'll keep that in mind.
And uh, interesting, vomit is, regarded differently in different countries.
uh, in Britain, they're, they're really turned off by vomit.
And we can draw, we can get away with vomit cartoons here much more
than some other bodily fluids.
So you can, you know, uh, somebody says something off and you go bleh.
Taylor Jones: How did Ralph Steadman get away with it then?
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: Well, he wasn't drawing for American newspapers.
Hajo De Reijger: I also think blood is okay, right?
Daryl Cagle: No!
No, they don't like blood.
Hajo De Reijger: But as long as it's not coming out of someone, if it's
already lying there like a bloodbath.
You know,
Daryl Cagle: we get a lot of cartoons from foreign cartoonists, particularly
in the Middle East, and they like to do lots and lots of blood.
You know, here's somebody saying, sinking in the lake of blood, the ocean of blood.
no, they don't, they don't want like,
Hajo De Reijger: but like Putin with his hands covered in
Daryl Cagle: bloody hands, bloody hands kind of borders on being a symbol.
but, I can't say that I've actually tracked the bloody hands printings,
but, uh, I just kind of fortunately,
Taylor Jones: this is
Daryl Cagle: watermelon.
Yes, so you've got, the Gallagher debate, uh, with, uh, Trump debating
Biden, and it was a crazy, uh,
Taylor Jones: And Chris Wallace, Chris Wallace was the moderator.
Daryl Cagle: Now, Taylor, remember we're trying to get high schools to use this,
and you're making a metaphor to a 1980s, comedian who has died a few years ago.
Taylor Jones: No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
Oh, yes.
Oh, I'm sorry.
He has a Gallagher Yes, I realize that and yet that particular
image comedic imagery that's
Daryl Cagle: this is a comedian who as part of his shtick would
squash lots of fruit and make lots of, gunk fly through the air.
And people in the front rows would famously wear these clear tarps because
they wanted to be where the action was and have fruit land on them.
And I thought he was really quite funny.
But you know, the 80s is maybe 45 years ago.
Taylor Jones: And that's pretty much your readership, isn't it?
I mean, you know, if you're trying to, I guess this wouldn't go over with kids,
they wonder what it is, but People still reading the Los Angeles Times, they
would understand what that reference was.
Daryl Cagle: They would, and, you know, we talk about that on these,
podcasts, that so many of our, our references are 40, 50, 60 years old,
and that works for the audience.
And, I noticed that in the audience stats for this podcast, you see the
graphic just goes like this when you get into, uh, age 50 and 60 and above, and,
males are up here and females are down here, and, it's the same for newspapers.
Well, I hear, I hear.
Dave Whamond: Looking about high school students, trying to appeal to high
school students, I have two that are just out of high school and a lot of the
kids now are rediscovering all the old comedians and they're watching Friends
and Seinfeld, so it's sort of not as far away as you think, like they do go
back and they appreciate some of the old music and the old Style comedians.
So the references isn't as lost as you might think.
So,
Daryl Cagle: that's great.
You ever catch him reading a newspaper?
Dave Whamond: Maybe online.
Taylor Jones: Yeah.
I think even if nobody's seen Gallagher, I think that particular, I just think
that reference is kind of stuck, held on, even if they don't even know who he is.
plus there's, there's a lot of, I know that for younger audiences, carnival
sideshow kind of comedy is pretty big.
Hajo De Reijger: Daryl, do you have, do you have any young cartoonists?
Young female cartoonists.
Or are they all white male like I see the side?
Well, you know,
Daryl Cagle: they exist.
Of course they exist.
But they draw in a different style.
They tend to draw multi panel cartoons, wordy cartoons, cartoons that have
more emphasis on personality and conversation that are very often,
introspective or, autobiographical.
And, that doesn't work.
For our, wide rectangle on the newspaper page.
so, yes, you know, if you go on the web and you, search for, women
political cartoonists, you'll find them.
But, you don't find them to fit in our spot.
And I can kind of understand why they're not motivated to accept all
of the constraints that we have.
You know, this is really very restrictive thing that we do to fit into this space,
to minimize the words, to describe stories in the news that you expect
people to know about because of the context of where they're seeing it.
I can see why cartoonists don't want to accept all of those restraints
on their work for the pittance that we get paid for what we do.
So, it makes sense that we don't have young cartoonists.
Of course, young cartoonists exist.
They don't want to take on our shackles, climb into our tar pit
With the other dinosaurs . Here, you've got the rocket men
contemplating their navels.
This is a wonderful cartoon.
Uh, their navels, of course, lots of reprints.
The button that, launches the nuclear missiles, uh, of this is hilarious.
Taylor Jones: Mm-hmm.
. Well, thank you.
And of course, Trump had referred to Kim as a little rocket man.
Mm-hmm.
at the un.
And his UN speech.
So that's what gave me the idea for this.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I think this is very funny.
It looks like something editors wouldn't want to print, but I can't
really identify that there's something in there that I should say that
Taylor Jones: I don't know, kind of down toward Trump's legs.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, all right.
Dave Whamond: I like the little Diet Coke touch there, too.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got Donald Trump playing Three Card Monty.
Um, you know, when I lived in New York in the 1970s, there was a lot of Three
Card Monty going on on the street.
And, you don't see it anymore, and I wonder if kids now would
know about Three Card Monty.
Well, anyway, Three Card Monty is a rigged game to cheat people who, uh,
walk by and get caught up in your pitch on the street, which should be glib and,
lively, and they think they see the card that's the one that they should pick, but
they're tricked because none of them are.
Taylor Jones: oh, this is, I guess, pretty early on in Trump's presidency where, they
start looking to his foundation and, you know, how, I guess a very little amount
of it was actually going to anything.
Dave Whamond: It ties into the whole Trump Casino thing too.
So I think it works in a couple of levels there.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
The street huckster, actually it's, it's three card Monty and New York thing.
you know, I moved to New York from California in the 1970s.
I got out of college.
And I had never seen Three Card Monte before I got to Times Square.
Well,
Dave Whamond: we, we stayed there at the Rubens and I did see a game.
So, there's the odd one still going, I think.
Daryl Cagle: In New York, so.
But, uh, never in Calgary, I would bet.
Dave Whamond: Not that I've seen, no.
Maybe I should start one up.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got toddler Trump saying gaga, goo goo, NATO, Putin,
uh, jumping on his bouncy world ball.
And drooling.
You know, every Trump so far has been drooling.
Taylor Jones: You know, um, um,
I have liked and disliked quite a few presidents, but Trump
is the one who disgusts me.
I just find him despicable, and I just can't stand him, and, I don't
know that it's made me a better cartoonist, but It's something that I
just have to get in there one way or another, you know, he's gross to me.
Daryl Cagle: Now this was funny, this Trump clown is, is hilarious he's just
kind of, uh, looming over Hillary.
Remember in his debate with Hillary, he stood right behind her and loomed
threateningly, in a way that, many women viewers thought was, uh, misogynistic.
And, this is funny, I think that reference may have gotten
a little lost with time, Well,
Taylor Jones: yes, uh, although, I sort of thought, when I thought of drawing
this, I thought of that horrible movie, Killer Clowns from Outer Space, yeah,
this was also, this was equally a dig at Hillary, this was a dig at both of them.
You know, I'm not letting her off the hook in any way here.
The likeliness
Hajo De Reijger: of hillary's is amazing
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, so you got hillary In front of this giant evil trump clown and
hillary says four scored seven elections ago I spoke publicly and I spoke privately
I don't see that as A dig against Hillary.
She's she's dressed up like Abe Lincoln saying four score and 70.
I mean You're saying that she's more presidential
Taylor Jones: well, I suppose you could look at it that way but again a lost
reference Is that she was kind of talking about regarding her emails and About
talking publicly and privately and of course Republicans seized on that So she
wasn't making her political situation at the moment, any easier for herself.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I look at this as a very pro Hillary cartoon.
You've also got him drooling again.
Dave Whamond: I find Hillary really difficult to draw.
So I think Taylor's one of the best caricaturists out there.
So yeah.
I admire people who
Daryl Cagle: can pull it off.
So here you got Trump holding up the Bible.
Remember, uh, discussion about him holding up the Bible.
He held the Bible up upside down and, as he was being, very disturbing in
the way he dealt with the protesters around the White House, and here
he's holding up the Bible saying.
Why is the Bible my favorite book?
It's all the stories about mammon.
I love the mammon.
I have so much mammon, your head will spin.
That's very funny.
lovely drawing.
Looks like a pencil
Taylor Jones: drawing.
It is.
It's colored pencil.
Uh
Dave Whamond: oh, is that drool again?
It is.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got Trump loving the flag, the Confederate Battle Flag.
Taylor Jones: Well that was simply based on a photo of him, exactly
how He was giving some speech, not at a big rally, at a smaller event.
And of course he whipped up the crowd and they went over and hugged the American
flag in a kind of a real creepy way.
So I just turned it into the Confederate flag.
Daryl Cagle: Well, these are his people.
Yeah.
And here he is with his kids looking very Nazi.
editors don't print Nazi references.
Yes,
Taylor Jones: Especially Nazi references with drool.
Daryl Cagle: Yes, with drool.
I thought this one was very interesting.
Waste deep in the Big Harry with all the troops marching into
Trump's hair and falling out as, casualties of war in caskets.
Taylor Jones: This a reference that only the oldest would get,
to a Pete Seeger song, protest song, which was called Waste Deep in the Big
Muddy at the height of Vietnam War or the depths of the Vietnam War, I should say.
And at the time, Trump.
you'll remember that when Obama was president, he early on said, there would
be a surge in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Then we'd, after the surge, it was a time limit.
He was criticized that there'd be the end of the surge.
And, when Trump first entered office, he sort of did the same thing.
And that's why the whole idea of sort of going back and getting
mired again in an unwinnable war.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this is a lovely drawing and, uh, I think it's great fun.
Great fun!
you know, I love these backs of the heads caricatures.
And, there's just something charming about how you, can describe someone
so well with the back of their head if you know them that well.
Taylor Jones: Well, you know, I started drawing cartoons professionally at the
very tail end of the Nixon administration, literally the last few months.
and of course I've caricatured all of our presidents, but in the ones that
have been, that I've served while I've been, drawing, the one who, the one I,
like the most in terms of a face, a head to draw has been Obama because, and I
think, I don't know, I, I drew well over 200 very detailed caricatures of him.
Which is a lot but there was something about the angles the planes in his
head I'm glad he kept his you know It kind of emphasized that with
very the very close cropped hair and you know to me Trump is a mess.
I mean he's fun to draw but he's a big mess But obama, uh was the opposite of
that But but always a very interesting angle no matter how he posed And that,
uh, and this for me, uh, um, I saw this picture of the two of them I think, you
know, right after Trump's election, and I said, I gotta do something with that.
Daryl Cagle: Well, that's, that's really a lot of fun.
Very nice.
Hajo De Reijger: He is difficult though, right?
Trump, he has characteristics, but to really nail him is,
uh, is difficult, I think.
Taylor Jones: You can do something that looks like Trump, but doing him
really well, that's, yeah, I suppose.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Trump peeing in the America pool, and
he says, "Yeah, Comey's a leaker".
Of course, this is, one of those bodily fluids that the editors don't like.
Taylor Jones: Well, it's done a lot, though.
In fact, I've seen a number of pee and pool cartoons on, uh, You know, editors,
Daryl Cagle: cartoonists love to draw pee and blood.
Those are our favorite bodily fluids.
Dave Whamond: Like, as you said, these really tend to take off online, like
you, someone will post it and it goes viral usually, but the papers shy away
Daryl Cagle: from it for some reason.
There's different audiences.
I that's a great frustration for us.
So, here you have Trump, the pig wallowing in the mud and it says
he gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem.
This,
Taylor Jones: this was actually in reference, he made a, he made that comment
about some woman, a celebrity, I think, or something while he was, or, uh, either
that or some woman who had come out, maybe it was some woman who had charged him.
With, uh, harassment.
And, uh, that was his response, about her.
So I just used it against him.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this one was fun to draw here is poop on his head.
I don't know, Taylor.
I sometimes you're drawing these just for yourself.
Taylor Jones: I'm enjoying them for you, Daryl, not for your editors, just for you.
Daryl Cagle: Well, I do enjoy them.
Here you've got Trump as William Howard Taft, who famously got stuck in a bathtub,
and I guess, Trump was looking pretty much like he could be stuck in a bathtub
and very William Howard Taft like.
Hajo De Reijger: these hair, I saw this in the other cartoons as well, you
draw these hairs out of his nipples.
I cannot unsee it now.
I just noticed that.
Daryl Cagle: Well, you
Taylor Jones: know, I've done that with just about everybody.
Uh, look in the mirror.
Daryl Cagle: So Donald Trump and the Birds, he's tearing up the Migratory Bird.
Act of 1918.
here you have uh, the birds are pooping on him.
but, uh, wonderful birds.
I love your birds.
You've got two things going against this one.
First it's vertical and next it has poop.
Well, you can see it on your phone.
Yes!
Very good for the phone.
Nice viral cartoon.
Here you have the Trump Mastodon.
Uh, duty, honor, and country.
And, General Kelly, who was his, chief of staff at the time, and got bumped
out for pushing back on him, thinks, so this is what I signed up for.
He was going through a lot of poop at that time.
Hajo De Reijger: No drool, though.
Taylor Jones: No.
Elephants don't drool.
Daryl Cagle: No drool.
Plenty of poop.
Well, actually, there's a mastodon here.
Oh, Mastodon.
very good.
All right.
We're starting off with.
Dave Whamond and Dave, what a wonderful wizard of Oz cartoon you've got here.
You've got Trump, the wizard of Oz saying, I'm a rich and
successful financial wizard, huge.
And you say, pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain.
This is a lovely cartoon.
Oh, thank you.
Dave Whamond: you know, I I'm amazed how everyone, especially on the
right, still thinks Trump's this.
Successful businessman and it's been proven over and over again that
he's probably uh, they said he's not even a millionaire He's probably
a debt in there because he's blown all his money He's just bankrupted
how many like what five times now?
He's bankrupted casinos, which would be hard to do So I always think that's
like the little man behind the curtain.
Well, he
Taylor Jones: wants pride.
He's the king of debt.
So yeah this is great,
Daryl Cagle: Dave.
This is wonderful.
Here you've got a guy at the doctor and his EKG looks like Donald Trump's
signature, which is hilarious because his signature does look like that.
And the doctor says, your anxiety levels are through the roof.
Any idea what might be causing this?
It's very funny.
Dave Whamond: This is one of the first cartoons I think I did.
When I, uh, started in, what was it, 2018, late 2018, and, Yeah, a lot of people
didn't catch that that was his signature, so, I was thinking maybe I should have
pulled back a bit and made it a little bigger, but, once you, you know it's his
signature, then it, it all makes sense.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, it's perfect.
Don't change a thing.
Okay.
So here you got Trump the iceberg, and the...
Republican Party Titanic is just about to hit it and Politico says
Trump is adrift and the Republican Party Titanic says full steam ahead
as they're about to crash and sink.
Those are wonderful cartoons.
Nice Trumpberg.
Thanks.
Dave Whamond: Yeah, I kind of liked how that turned out.
That's why I included this one, this was sort of when, they had a very good
opportunity to cut ties with him and.
And I think they would have been much better off now if they would have just,
done what they needed to do back then.
But they went full steam ahead.
Daryl Cagle: I don't know that they were ever really able to cut ties with him.
I think
Dave Whamond: this was back right after January 6th when they actually
made some speeches and showed a little bit of spine and Then, next thing
you know, Kevin McCarthy's going down to Florida to kiss the ring.
Daryl Cagle: So boy, yeah.
So here you have Biden on Trump's mind, and Biden says, Donald,
it's your old pal, sleepy Joe.
I know you're a landlord, but for the next few years I'm
going to live here rent free.
And that's no malarkey you know, in response to our, our
last podcast that Trump...
I got a bunch of email from conservatives, outraged that
there were no Biden cartoons.
We can do a Biden podcast, why not?
Yeah, I
Dave Whamond: think you could have the most vanilla person on the
Democrat in power and they would find a way to demonize that person.
Daryl Cagle: So here you have Trump at the doctor, showing an x ray of his
Achilles heel, and the doctor says, "I know you said you don't have a
racist bone in your body, but we did, however, find some racist bone spurs".
of course, Trump got out of serving in Vietnam by saying that he had bone
spurs that, never seemed to, bother him, through the rest of his life.
Taylor Jones: Dave, did you, did you, uh, Google, X ray for bone spur yeah, I
Dave Whamond: cheated on this one.
I did actually use an X ray and then I drew around it a little bit.
I just thought some doctor somewhere is going to say, Hey, that's not a,
Taylor Jones: yeah, no, that's good.
Hajo De Reijger: That's good.
Yeah.
I believe I believe this is bone
Daryl Cagle: spur.
Yeah.
So here you have Trump with Boris and Natasha from the Bullwinkle Show.
Um, do kids watch the Bullwinkle Show now?
Dave Whamond: I think so.
They still know it.
Yeah.
Taylor Jones: Nickelodeon cartoon network, cartoon
network.
So, yeah.
Daryl Cagle: So Trump is passing out, classified documents to Boris and
Natasha, Trump, the person, Natasha, the woman, Boris, the man, security camera,
the camera, and FBI watching it on TV.
That's very funny.
Boris and Natasha show up in, uh, political cartoons quite a bit.
Yeah, they sort
Dave Whamond: of fit perfectly with the whole Russian spy thing, so.
Daryl Cagle: Okay.
Here you have Trump and a Republican elephant, and they're looking
at a cognitive assessment test.
Identify the GOP elephant.
The elephant says, "It's okay, I no longer recognize it either".
Guess the three letter word.
that's funny.
They are unrecognizable.
Dave Whamond: At that time they were, that this was done, they were making a
huge deal out of how Trump identified a giraffe on the cognitive test, and I
just thought that he was bragging about it, saying nobody's ever done it so well.
I just you parody
Daryl Cagle: that, you know?
So here you have, Dr.
Seuss.
Thing 1 and Thing 2 are Individual 1 and Individual Junior 2.
And the cat in the hat says, "And this mess is so big and so deep
and so tall we cannot pick it up.
There's no way at all".
That's excellent.
And, I should mention that you are a.
Prolific children's book illustrator.
Dave Whamond: yeah, this was very fun to draw.
And of course, grew up with Dr.
Seuss, so it was sort of a little tribute to his work.
But, hopefully, if he were alive to see it, he would, enjoy
Taylor Jones: it.
I'm just, I'm just seeing the individual one, individual two, the reference.
Yeah.
Daryl Cagle: those are, of course, references to the lawsuit where they
didn't mention who the people were, but you knew very well who they were.
So, they're being let out of the box to cause all this trouble.
So there's all kinds of, nice metaphor going on in here.
Hajo De Reijger: Sorry, Dave, I don't really know who's individual two,
Dave Whamond: then.
well at that time, this was back right when Trump was Uh, that's identified
as individual one and then, Don Jr.
was in trouble as well.
So they said he could be individual too, but it's hard to remember back.
So much stuff
Daryl Cagle: happens, you know, I don't remember who these other unnamed
people exactly turned out to be.
Dave Whamond: I think the speculation was back then that he was in big trouble, but
he never did never really went anywhere.
So.
Daryl Cagle: Here you've got Trump holding his phone with his tiny hands
and he yells, "I need you to find me 11, 780 get out of jail free cards".
This of course is, referencing his, infamous, phone call to the Georgia
secretary of state to, urge him to cheat on the election count.
Dave Whamond: And multiple indictments now as well and legal woes, but
as, you guys have mentioned, I just think Trump is a gift to cartoonists.
I just love caricaturing him.
So, even though you get a little tired of it after a
Daryl Cagle: while, I just...
What are your thoughts on the small hands?
Dave Whamond: Well, it's just, uh, it's part of what you have to do now, right?
It's, it's just, everybody knows about it or like the long
tie, everybody mentions it.
So I can't have them doing like, I think I had to do one cartoon
where it wouldn't have made sense because he was doing something.
So I thought, okay, I have to make a hands at least big
enough to see what he was doing.
Daryl Cagle: Nice.
I can tell it's getting to be night time for Hajo.
Hajo De Reijger: Yeah, kind of.
Dave Whamond: We've been watching the sun set as
Daryl Cagle: usual.
So I think that's, it for us.
Anything more for you guys to add?
Hajo De Reijger: No, it was fun.
Thank you very much.
Nice to meet
Daryl Cagle: you both.
Well, thank you very much for joining me and, that will
be it for today's Caglecast.
Come back to the next one.
Be sure to, subscribe and like . If you are on a regular podcast,
platform listening to this in audio only, it's fun to see the cartoons.
So come to Caglecast.com or YouTube.com/@Caglecast,
and watch the video.
I think we're going to do some more of these Trump, podcasts.
So, I will see you again soon.
Thank you.
Thanks, Daryl.
Goodbye.
Hajo De Reijger: See you soon.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye